October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@binkie163 Oh I've heard of that, I'll look it up, thank you!

just want to voice something out loud. I’m really struggling at the moment (can’t sleep). I really hate this time of year as it is just so difficult to see other normal happy families - it totally highlights everything mine is not.

Ive been NC with my parents for the last 4 ish years. I’m comfortable as I can be with this - being around them makes me feel sick with worry and self hate.
ive kept LC with siblings since then but what I’m really struggling with is that I’m clearly the outcast in the family and there’s a whole lot of other stuff going on which is kept from me.
Its all smoke and mirrors.

one sibling has invited himself over to visit at Christmas but I really feel uncomfortable with this - it’s a total farce.
im not sure what we ought to talk about? Pretend and try to be lighthearted when the elephant in the room is that they hold stuff back and continue to view me as the scapegoat.

@Nomdemare You are with the right people here - I think most of us on this thread feel the same about Christmas for the same reasons, plus some other reasons.

Do you actually want the sibling over that has invited themselves over? Because it’s ok to say no to them if it makes you feel uncomfortable. It sounds like it will be quite strained and uncomfortable. Will that impact on/spoil your Christmas? Or would you want to see them, regardless?
If you want them there then yes, you need to grey rock and keep things surfacy to protect yourself. If they are quite enmeshed in the family, then anything you do say is likely to be fed back to your family.
Although we often don’t ask siblings to take ‘sides’, they often take sides anyway, and it does sound like although you are still in contact with your siblings, they are more on your parents side.
Its shit being part of a toxic family. They seem to manage to cast dark clouds over every special event.

I'm beginning to understand Golden Child syndrome. it's the child who reflects back to the parents their idealised view of their family - reality be damned. So my DSis who can fill in tax returns for my elderly dad 'in minutes' is the GC, no matter that she screamed at and hit her children (maybe still does).

I'm grey rocking it at Xmas too - I've tried to work through our difficulties - messily, yes, but with a commitment to empathy and an open heart and a lifetime of being that person - and i'm just getting ignored.

I liken the GC to a show home at a housing development. Come look at this amazing house and in the background are empty shells of houses. Mine are jealous and show offs but these parts of them are ignored and they angelic. Sad for them as they have no friends, focused solely on the mum.

@Nomdemare welcome to the outcasts club xx if it's going to cause stress just uninvite sibling, you can soften it by saying let's catch up in the new year and leave it vague.
I don't like the whole grey rock thing, it's being fake which is hard work. If you can't be yourself around people then probably best to avoid them.
I went NC with siblings and parents as I just couldn't be bothered with any of it anymore, I wasn't interested in anything to do with my fake dysfunctional family, it wasn't worth the energy.
People seem to be much more honest these days about the reality as opposed to the pretend Disney family Xmas.

@Nomdemare Hugs. It sounds like you're having a really difficult time at the moment. Christmas isn't easy, is it? I still haven't figured out how to enjoy it, though I try my best.

TBH when I see the supposed family get togethers of 'normal' families, I remember how my family presented itself like this when I was a child and how utterly fake it was. Some of them probably are lovely, but some of them are putting on an act and will be hiding people who haven't slept for a week in the lead up and will cry for 2 days after.

Regarding being NC with your family, I think you could maybe benefit from asking yourself why you're so hurt that they are doing stuff without you/not telling you everything. The point of being proactively NC is that you remove yourself from the family stuff, and from the drama, so of course they're not including you in stuff. Do you want to be included in it? Are you regretting the decision to limit contact? You haven's said much about the family dynamic, so it's hard to say whether seeing the sibling who wants to visit is a good idea or not, but remember that it's fine to say no if you want to. It's allowed. You don't have to share your life with anyone that you don't want to share it with.

I did want to say, though, that I have the same anxiety/physical reaction to contact with my family. I only have contact with 1 person, my mother, and TBH it's entirely one sided. I don't reach out to her. I've got nothing to say and find her incredibly stressful. She sends me links to shit on facebook and news articles on an almost daily basis, despite being told to stop (which I know sounds like a petty and silly thing to get wound up about). I recently did 6 months of CBT and the therapist taught me relaxation and breathing techniques which I have found to be very helpful because they calm the physical reaction that I have to her so the fight or flight isn't activated quite so much. It's not about improving the relationship or somehow making it all fine, because it doesn't, just about making things easier to cope with and there's less distress and guilt if I am more relaxed and can make good decisions. I wondered if you might find something like this helpful? (I know it sounds like hippy woo, but it's not, it really helps)

I received a christmas parcel with my father as the sender. I opened it, as there was a chance my niece was involved packing it and I couldn't do it to her to just bin it in case she asks me all excited if I received it. But there is no sign of her involved, no drawings etc.

Stupidly, I read the card and it says 'we'd be delighted to see you again'. I'm in tears.

I want to message them again, telling them 'Please do not send anything again.' Do I do it or not?

This has ruined my day. I'm so angry that they 'keep trying'.

The parcel is full of sweets. I have a favourite branded sweet, nothing expensive, just a few £ which my mother used to buy. Two years ago, when I last saw them for Christmas, she bought the cheap knock off 'because of cost of living'. I told her I don't like it as it was just sickly sweet. It pissed me right off considering how much they buy and do for my brother during the year and anything sweet they like for christmas gets bought three of four times, but she had to save like £1.50 for the only sweet I care about and I only visited 2-3 times a year and didn't cost them anything.

It gets petty now, but she put the knock off of this sweet into the parcel. I'm so angry because she obviously didn't fucking listen or doesn't care. She has form for this. She'd ask 'do you want X for your birthday' and I'd say 'No, I have no need for it' and she'd then give me X.

It's like they send this parcel so they can pretend to themselves and others that 'they have done everything they can', but then put something in the parcel to piss me off. I know it's probably not that deep.

I had to finally block my father a few weeks ago because he kept sending me messages. I suspect they slagged me off to my brother, because him and his wife have started to act all distant. I don't care, I knew this would happen. There was no way they'd see clearly and be even remotely interested in my side of the story. I have already grieved my relationship to them, which wasn't healthy either, so to me this is done. They might visit me, but I know there will never be any depth to this relationship. But they keep sending me stuff.

Even when my father kept messaging me, a message here or there every few weeks, I started to wonder that maybe I wasn't clear enough and need to spell it out to them again, like it's some mistake on my part. Then I dropped the thought because I realised I thought like that all my life: that I just need to say things in the right way and they'd finally listen. Anyway, I now wonder if I should say to them 'I'm not interested in any contact'?

Back in August I told them 'I'm not interested in calls or messages'. I thought that would be clear.

Pisses me off also. I feel they do this because they need to convince themselves they are the good wronged party. When you turn them down that can tell everyone and themselves that they have done all they could.

So advice on the internet suggests not to react to hoovering in any way. I'm just so angry that I want to tell them 'hahaa, I'm not coming back, hahaa' but i would feel like a lunatic. I would probably feel more in power if I just continue to ignore.

This parcel took me by total surprise. They used to send me Christmas parcels but then stopped because 'brexit and cost of living'. It did sting at the time because I see what they do and spend for my brother who lives nearby, but was ultimately convinced that it was reasonable because they are pensioners and not loaded. I feel stupid now. I think they just couldn't be bothered.

My heart sank when I realised I have an unaccounted for parcel outside of the deliveries I was expecting.

Sorry I'm rambling and venting. I'm just so restless.

So I need to get this stuff out of my house. There is no way I will eat any of it and be reminded of them with every bite.

Oh god how bizarre that they'd like to see me again. Last time I saw them I stood up to my mother and I swear she thought of slapping me in the face, before storming off and slamming the door.

Then at the airport, when I flew home, I dont know what I said, but I got this look from her...they pull these faces to try to intimidate you into obedience...that's the face I remember last time I saw her. What on earth makes her think I'd want to see this again or worry my mother will slap me lol.

@Twatalert put it all in the outside bin. Right now. Then it's gone.

It is definitely so they can tell themselves (and other people) that they care and they've tried. If they feel the need to do that, fine. You can't stop them unfortunately. My mother has form for crap gifts, too. I remember DH taking me to one side and saying 'she doesn't even know what kind of chocolate you like' after she'd made this huge fuss over the meanest little box of chocs. I know the other siblings get quite a lot of money.

Can you treat yourself to the stuff you do like? (I know it's not the same as having someone else acknowledge you enough to buy it as a gift, but it's what I do.)

My MIL buys us the most non emotional thing she can find. Our daughter got a 12 pack of wet wipes for her first birthday with a bow on top and that was it. That made me chuckle. Cards won’t be written in, everything is devoid of personality as if she has zero interest. This year I’ve done similar and bought stuff with zero personality. Usually I’d do something nice and sentimental but I’ll save that for those who care about our kids. These people will get the grey rock they give out back. In fact perhaps a rock with a bow on. 🤔

That sounds distressing @Twatalert, I'm sorry. What a shitty thing to put the knock-off sweets in there. How are you feeling now?

It pissed me right off considering how much they buy and do for my brother during the year and anything sweet they like for christmas gets bought three of four times, but she had to save like £1.50 for the only sweet I care about and I only visited 2-3 times a year and didn't cost them anything.

This reminds me of when I drove 300 miles to see my mother, and as I was leaving she said oh let me get you some money for petrol. She gave me £30 and said she couldn't give me any more as she had to take it out of my brother's birthday money! I didn't care about the petrol money, what hurt was having to hear about how she gives my brother birthday money when she never gave me any money, ever. Not even the small amount of money my dad left for me until I snapped years later and threatened to take her to court over it, and even then she gave it to me in dribs and drabs. She's not destitute either. The mortgage was paid off decades ago, she has my dad's generous pension, his life assurance and savings, and an inheritance from her own father.

My cat just knocked something off my desk which, despite being a cat, is unusual for him. I got up to investigate and it was the Christmas card my mother sent. I hadn't put it up, it was just laid flat among a load of other stuff I don't want to deal with. But he chose that. Such a good boy.

Wet wipes

When I was about 8 we visited my aunt's house for the first time, just before Christmas. She gave me a vanity set, the sort with cuticle tools and comedone extractors and nail scissors, which she'd clearly won in a raffle and didn't know what to do with, and a box of tissues. And none of it wrapped

I think a rock with a bow is a bit understated. For a truly unforgettable gift you need to jazz it up with the finest, stickiest glitter money can buy.

twat sending parcels, dropping texts etc when you've said you're NC is just another way for them to trample over yet another boundary

Hello, thanks all. Sorry I'm not seeing clearly. Can I ask: in August I sent text that I don't want calls or messages and have nothing left to say. That's enough, no? I sent this to my mother as she kept trying to reach me but it was meant for both parents. Would you say this was clear enough?

I have not reacted to anything since then. Ignored birthdays, texts, flowers.

I'm so much better without them. I never want to go back to this old life.

The way I'm reading the situation twat is nothing will ever be enough for a narc because whatever boundaries we set they have no intention of respecting them.

The only person I'd say anything to now is your niece (who you seem to like) to tell her that if she wants to send you anything, to send it herself not in combination with anyone else. And I'd only mention that if she's in the habit of sending you stuff. Otherwise, check the parcels themselves when they arrive, there's usually a company name on there somewhere even if it's small print on the label. Anything you're not expecting, refuse to accept it when the courier comes. Or give it straight into the food bank/charity shop, to turn a negative into a positive. I can't think what else to do, other than move home so they don't have an address to send anything to.

@Twatalert if NC you should block their numbers and email. You have left the door wide open if they are still able to contact/mssg you. You don't need to tell them anything, just do it. You are right back in the drama.
In future bin stuff don't open. They don't care, they are not trying to build bridges they are just looking for a reaction. They know it will have upset you and will be feeding off that narcissistic supply. Probably laughing as they know those cheap sweets will trigger you.
NC means NC block avenues of contact. You fell for the classic hoovering, they know you are burning with indignation, don't compound it by letting them know. Do not pull your niece into a drama triangle by discussing it with her.

It's not you, it's them refusing to respect your boundaries, and so it ever was with narcissists. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

This is why we have legal things like restraining orders, because there are people who cannot accept a no and cannot accept that a relationship has ended.

I think @SamAndAnnie has made good suggestions about refusing parcels etc if you can. Beyond that, do the things that help you calm your nervous system when this happens, whatever they are (as long as they're healthy obvs).

Thanks again everyone. I'm still not feeling okay. You are right, I need to calm my nervous system and stop going through everything in my head over and over again .

I'm glad I didn't send an angry message to them yesterday. It's best not to react.

Yes, I should block them all. For some reason this is a massive hurdle for me. I found it much easier to go NC after having worked through the shit show that was my childhood, but pressing the block button on my mother seems impossible.

I binned the nasty sweets but kept some I usually like. I ate one and it was weird. I used to equal these sweet gifts with love. These sweets used to mean the world to me because of that. Not anymore.

It’s so sad we get conditioned to love the scraps we receive. I find it difficult still to not hold on emotionally to those scraps. We are worth a lot more!