October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I just want to give them what for but then I know it won’t do anything and I’ll look crazy. I don’t want to be part of this, I just want a normal family for a bloody change.

@Happyfarm I agree with @CheekySnake, ask your partner to stop showing you photos. It’s just rubbing salt into the wound. When you say your partner doesn’t seem bothered, do you mean he doesn’t seem bothered that you’re upset, or doesn’t seem bothered about being excluded? Or both? Has he challenged them on their behaviour?

Sorry if you’ve already discussed this, I’m new to the thread.

Pay for a hotel? Just one night and she goes home next day. You made a mistake saying yes, you've recognised your mistake, you can apologise to her for that and also try to rectify it a bit by only having her for one day and not overnight. With anyone else I'd agree with DH, the mistake is yours suck it up. But with such a toxic person who has ruined you life it's not the same, you don't owe her the usual level of politeness and respect you'd extend to anyone else. Sounds like she's guaranteed to cause upset like she's always done before and it will be the last straw for you and you'll go NC. You sound like you're almost there anyway without any additional nonsense. So you've nothing to lose and nothing to feel guilty for by changing the arrangements last minute and partially letting her down. I'll bet she's never apologised for any of her mistakes.

On this part I agree with DH. He's discussed it once and given you his considered opinion. He doesn't have to change his mind just because you disagree with his decision. Whether he agrees or not, it doesn't stop you from doing something other than what he prefers. If he's not going to change his mind and he knows that, then what's to discuss? We get so caught up in going over and over things and trying to make some shitty circumstances right, it's part of the toxicity cycle. He's avoiding being dragged into that and is annoyed at you trying to drag him into it perhaps? I'd leave him be now, make your decision alone, you've had his input.

@SamAndAnnie I've batted away previous requests to stay by saying she would have to stay in a hotel. She bluntly told me that a hotel was not an option and didn't visit. Before her husband died they would stay in a hotel (they had to - we don't actually have a spare room or a spare bed). The visits were infrequent and there was no contact at all in between. This worked for me and I could just about cope with the visits b/c they were short. Sadly he died unexpectedly, she moved back to the UK (they had retired abroad) and she assumed we would just pick up a relationship that hasn't existed for twenty years.(The staying at our house is also my fault - I agreed to what I thought was a one off stay just after he died. One of the kids has to give up their bedroom and sleep on the floor to make room. I was trying to do the right thing. She assumed this was the new normal. I'm getting better at putting in boundaries but occasionally I fail, but did a lot of work on this with a therapist).

You are right about NC. I am so close to it and think about it often (funnily enough, I told my therapist that as a teen, the plan was to move away and disappear, and she pointed out that I've basically done it, apart from this thread of contact with my mother).

Right about DH too 😐

I think I will have to let this visit happen. But this is the end of it. We don't have room and it's not a healthy relationship for me.

@happyfarm i disagree that you can choose. I don't think everybody can choose. It sounds legitimately difficult that she's in your face like that. Personally in your shoes, I might try a show down. It might produce a few cracks and let through a few chinks of a new dynamic which could ease the stress for you.

A carefully calibrated showdown in which you give no hostages by behaving badly (insulting, raging) just set out your feelings (with a tonne of respect for the fact that others may find them puzzling) and offer constructive, empathic vibes at all times.

Maybe this is crazy but i do get the sense this is partly a game of strategy, and that strategy - done benignly and with absolutely not a speck of mean-ness on you - can win big sometimes.

As online peeps we can never validate what you say directly, but you seem pretty on the level, if unable to get over how your attempt to approach the world openly and fairly is not reciprocated by others (I can so relate).

Your husband - does he understand at all? How does he feel about her?

People are bound by norms that it's good to talk and as long as you stay inside that vanilla norm you can usually get away with it.

it would also, in the world of emotionally healthy people, simply be the right thing to do.

I have bern reading and taking comfort from you all. I visited my parents yesterday and it was awful. My dm would not back down and continued to lie about what happened. I have proof but she is not interested. They kept saying they are old so I just should apologise. Ddad did try and get dm to leave it and move on but she would not. My lovely kind ds went over on Sunday to see if they were ok and they were out and so left a note and they were so angry at this, that I sent him but he went out of love and was not asked by me. Dm just kept saying she had lost her only child but i was stood there asking her to move on. Such a mess.

Thanks for your kindness and compassion @almondmilk123 . It shows exactly who you are too, and I hope you know that you deserve so much goodness. To show up with such grace for internet strangers like that is not a small thing. I'm sorry you've struggled so much with your own family of origin, and with what sounds like a lot of confusion. I relate to this a lot. Can you pinpoint what it is that you've learned about your family, that made you realise all wasn't quite what it seemed? What did you see or feel? What did you get or NOT get from them?

I'll share a bit of my experience if that's OK. I've spent most of my life "confused" about these people that love me, that are my family, that would do anything for me, but that make me feel so awful and so full of dread and confusion and sadness. That make me feel like a caricature, rather than a real, fully feeling human. That make me feel like a second class citizen. I don't come from an overtly abusive family, and we were very well-to-do growing up. Big house, parents with white collar jobs, fancy hobbies like piano, tennis, horse riding. Holidays abroad, study support, etc. There was a lot of "nice things" and "privilege". People would tell me "your mother is amazing!" She was the quintessential Mother Hen - would do anything for anyone, doting on others externally, took a cousin in during his college years etc. Oh the confusion. Because she was always annoyed and inconvenienced by me. I was only of use when I was performing "good, quiet, excelling at school / sports / music", otherwise I was selfish and "just like my father". I wrote an essay for English class when I was about 11 called "the generation gap" about how out of touch my parents are, I attributed it to their ages at the time. They were "older" parents. What I know now is I was actually describing emotional neglect, parents that didn't have the capacity to parent emotionally, certainly not three kids, one of whom was high needs and another that commanded a lot of attention. They weren't up for that so I was the "got lost in the shuffle" kid.

That's how I've felt for most of my adult life now. Lost in the shuffle, unheard, unimportant, invisible and always alone. Through therapy I've managed to improve my life a lot - not least of all meeting an amazing husband who shon a light on these issues by just loving me, attuning to me, and seeing me as he does. I didn't realise that was possible for me, or at all. My summary would be that I was housed, fed and educated, but the book stopped at that. My mother wasn't interested in any child who was in any way different from her, hence she's got her Golden Daughter and another one dependent on her to literally stay alive who can't tell her no, and then me, who can't talk to her without it triggering a physiological response. My father was as much her victim as we were, and in his old age he understands that he's made his bed now. He never know love either, he comes from his own trauma.

I don't know if any of this is relatable. For me, it's very hard to experience joy, or to trust myself enough to dream up things for myself and my husband now, now that I am psychologically safe and healing. I work on it constantly, I'm doing the therapy and the ADHD coaching and exercising and yoga and trying to initiate a career change. But the freedom to like myself, trust myself and be excited about my life and believe I deserve good things is just very tainted by all of this stuff. The ability to invest in my friendships and relationships and to intentionally get close to others has suffered a lot too. It's mostly just been me, for most of my life, people have come and gone and there's been enough repeated damage there for me to never fully trust others too.

Hi @flapjackfairy . Thanks for your comment. I relate a lot to the shaky foundation that you describe.

For me, I find myself at a loss for words or logical explanations for my childhood right up to my current mostly non relationships with my family of origin. I don't call, simply respond to texts occasionally, and tell them nothing. I feel completely disconnected; I don't relate to them as family. I feel more distant than a stranger around them or when thinking about them. I struggle to understand it myself, and then contextualise it for others. When the default is to be close with and loyal to family. Most people are without question.

I sat in a cafe yesterday and overheard aN excited young woman describe getting engaged to a friend. Her parents were up for the weekend to celebrate with her, her mother was looking into venues already, her parents were planning a get-together with her fiance's family. It was "my mom" this and "my sister" that. This is an example with a stranger; there are innumerous ones with my own friends, colleagues, acquaintances. Even my own golden child sister. It's "mom said" and "mom and I"; "I met Dad for lunch and he said...", etc etc. It's like witnessing every day what "normal" is, and realising you never got that invite over and over and over again. I don't get to have a family, but if you asked my family, it would be my fault because I "tell them nothing". But telling them nothing is better than telling them anything and having that thing that I hold precious, a job, a relationship, a dream, a plan, a friend, either torn to shreds or dismissed as unimportant. Telling them nothing is an act of self preservation. But it gives you that shaky foundation.

@wonderingwonderingwondering I can relate to really struggling to feel joy/enjoy things. I find it so hard. I just seem to want to have this flat, calm emotion all the time, never to allow myself to feel the big things. I know it's a childhood thing, because visible signs of emotion could be used against you. It wasn't safe to say you liked something, or didn't like it. So I learned not to. But then there are things that happen in my life now, things I've achieved, and I can't feel the joy of it like I know I should. I am constantly looking for the bits that aren't good enough and obsessing over those.

I've been told that it's linked to low self-esteem, which is also something that has been a constant battle for me. But I know I'm a bit rubbish. How could I not be? Fished out of the shitty section of the gene pool, and then actively disliked/ bullied/not valued by my family. Bleugh.

@Happyfarm you sound like a lovely person who values fairness, compassion, justice, treat others as you would like to be treated. But you've also mentioned you've experienced a lot of abuse in your life, so I do feel as though you need to be REALLY vigilant about who you allow access now.

There is a tendency, as my therapist puts it, to "keep going to the well" with people like this. To keep expecting someone who is blatantly not meeting you in love and respect, to show up as the mother / MIL you want them to be. You might know intellectually that they won't, but the brain likes what's familiar, and when abuse is familiar, it's going to be damn hard to call a spade a spade and disengage accordingly.

It's worth looking up articles and podcasts on how healthy people deal with toxic people. I think Dr. Ramani talks about this in detail. I look to my husband, he does this naturally. He doesn't try and try and try to placate his MIL, or get her on side, or have any kind of relationship with her. He knows she's emotionally deficient, too old to change, and will never be a significant figure in his life. He also predicts the actions of my GC sister to a tee: and is happy to talk to her if she's in the vicinity, but equally will never talk to her ever again if circumstances change. He doesn't invest in these people, or any people who aren't worth the investment. He doesn't speak badly of them, he's actually quite kind about them - "MIL is oblivious", "she's not able", "if it's not about her she won't listen" etc. Dr Ramani talks about the same, how healthy people recognise the toxicity and instead of trying to understand it or change it; they gravitate away in usually polite de-escalating ways.

I understand the effort to change these people and to feel love or even to feel like you matter just a little to them. Under that is a deep grief for what you never were given; I've found leaning into the healing of that, in all its ugliness and cry fits etc, has been my way out of the rumination. It's really just a lovely little kid who just wanted her family to care, at all, and she deserves healing.

ETA it's actually quite scary to stop the ruminating. Because it creates a lot of space in your brain for something new, something more hopeful. It creates space for you to forge a different future. Sometimes I don't want that responsibility, and the ruminating sets in. Change is hard. It's scary. But it's possible.

My friend (not a therapist) says it's like I'm in an abusive relationship but I keep going back for more abuse as I think it's my duty to look after my Parents in ill health.

In a nutshell, that's exactly it.

I also feel as though my golden child sibling purposely and increasingly slates me to extended family members and is doing everything to see if he can inherit it all rather than half. He doesn't think about care home costs!

Golden child wouldn't do what I do for them. They'd be abandoned. If they were to pass away he would be happier. I often think that golden child thinks I'm keeping them alive so get rid of me to get rid of them!

Does that make sense?

Hi I've posted on these threads before under another username but have NCd for this. Does anyone have any recommendations for resources on how to deal with your own children?

Because of my own upbringing on eggshells, I tend to not know how to handle situations with the LOs in a way that I'd like. I've done a parenting support course courtesy of the Health Visitor which seemed aimed at a very different audience to me, and no one has any concerns about us, but I do, because I'm not parenting perfectly or handling the situations the way I'd like to. I just don't seem to know where "assertive" is and am terrified of scaring them or coming across as aggressive so I shut down and give them what they want.

Due to my DM, I just don't know what better parenting looks like and I have no one in real life I can model from. My children are very young and I don't want the same patterns to repeat themselves.

I wondered if any of the Stately Homes women with their own children have any advice about how to break the cycle?

@wonderingwonderingwondering you are very right. I do feel sometimes that I do it in order to avoid the feeling that I’m just not significant to anyone (family wise). It’s not a nice feeling at all. Perhaps I think deep down they will change once they understand I’m hurt etc, but I have began to realise as others have said they give me very little thought. It just hurts sometimes. I feel a little guilty for my children that because I’m not accepted they are also going to feel this. I get the feeling that I will be blamed for this from them in the future and used against me. I’m trying to control this situation when in actual fact I have zero control over this.

@miyazakisan I'm reading Unfollowing Mum by Harriet Shearsmith and she talks a lot about this, how to parent when we don't have the right "blueprint" to follow due to our own experiences of being parented. There's a big list of resources at the back as well which looks useful.

@PatchworkOwl thank you, it looks good so I've ordered it.

One day after I came off the phone to my mum and cried my husband looked at me and said... "Why do you keep giving them the bullets to shoot you with ? ". It really struck home because he was so right and now I am the same as you in that I just keep it all v light and superficial. I used to be v close to my sister but for v long winded reasons she has dropped me and now I have no.real emotional connection to anyone in my immediate birth family. Sad but true !
I know I am better off that way but it hurts so much. Not to mention it seriously messes up your head as well.

I'm in the middle of a big blow up with my parents and thinking it's likely to lead to us going low or no contact. I've had enough of how they treat me, my husband and our child. They aren't good for me and we don't have a healthy relationship despite what they think.

It's my mum's birthday in a few days and I already have a present and card. Do I still give it to her somehow or is it best not to? I don't want to see them at the moment so I would have to pass it on through someone. I know it will hurt her if I don't but if I do I worry they will think I'm just going to brush everything under the carpet and play happy families again.

It is so crazy how de-stabilising not being liked by your parents is. When I started this journey I had no idea where my issues were coming from. I thought the golden child did better off but we all seem to have issues. I have issues with not being liked because it scratches away at this inner wound, the GD has to constantly be of worth and is worthless unless constantly earning it. They can never relax and just exist. Deep down none of us have been told that we are worthy simply by just being alive. It’s so sad to read these stories. I rant a lot but my head is definitely turning. I show up and I am trying to be authentic and I need authenticity in return otherwise we just superficial and that’s that.

I agree. It makes you not completely trust others. I know x

@Roserunner Can you securely leave it at their house when you know they're out? I would go through all the motions but be more guarded with what you say to them. Sad fact is this is what many of us have to do. Perhaps gradually withdraw contact until it's at a level you're happy with?

@justlaura I think I may have to do something like that. I'm sorry you have had similar issues. I have a feeling I will be coming to this thread regularly over the coming months.

@miyazakisan
The book you wish your parents had read by Phillipa Perry x