October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Oh thank you 😊

My child is an adult in his 30s. He’s doing ok he’s not seen anyone of the family apart from my dad for seven years now and the last time (this week actually as it was a Christmas thing) was utterly terrible. luckily he was working so only saw everyone for a bit for a drink after work.

(by the way at the time before my breakdown I though this was all completely normal)

My mum, a sibling and their partner and nieces and nephews visited us and it was truly awful. My mum even commented on how bad it was and how rude they were to me but then a week later backtracked and said it was me as it’s always blamed on me. A few ‘highlights’ like Sibling yelled at me in the street about about how are they supposed to fit kids presents in the car, we went to a lovely Christmas village market but they were rude about it, they weren’t keen on the Christmassy food I put out for lunch (I’d tried to arrange a meal in a pub or a takeaway but they had said no). then they just walked out after lunch for three hours with the kids we still don’t know where they went and left mum with us, Then they came back said they weren’t staying for tea as eating at the hotel and so we had beans on toast with mum by the fire (the highlight of the day). then we drove mum back to hotel and sibling was so vile to me that my DP drove me home sobbing. I was crying so much saying I know that’s it and I’ll never see them again.

I had a nervous breakdown a year later for many reasons and was suicidal and the thing that kept me going was talking to my dad a bit and him telling me it will be ok and my minds just playing tricks. And now seven years later everything I thought whilst having a breakdown has happened and I’ve been kicked out of the family. None of them have ever visited us since so I was right and that was going to be the end, my mum won’t visit unless that sibling thinks it’s ok so she’s never seen our home we have bought since then.

I have had therapy and therapist was great and made me realise it’s definitely not me and that my childhood was neglectful. I’ve been diagnosed with some bad MH illnesses but I’m still trying my best to enjoy life. And I’m trying to be at peace with it all as they did this to me. If I can just focus on my home, my mini family and block out all the other negative thoughts I can get through the day.

I brought my son up alone (abusive ex) so he only has me now they have done this as he doesn’t want to speak or see people who have treated me so very badly, that’s his choice. Until I had the breakdown he’d only seen the strong version of me keeping myself going as I had a child to think of but then I was a complete wreck, I still am some days.

I do worry about how all of this has effected him, I had hoped he finally had a nice partner but she treated him terribly and then cheated on him so he’s been recovering from that breakup since the summer. :( I just hope he meets someone amazing and has a wonderful happy life with them and has a family of his own so that this stuff finally ends with me and it’s not passed on to future generations.

I’ve done similar. I had some terrible partners in my teens (and had my amazing baby so that bit was wonderful). So in my teens abuse, rape, etc so on. Then a string of terrible one night stands with men I’d never want to even be with. I think the crap childhoods and no support lead to this stuff occurring as in my case I just wanted to feel something.

The decision should lie with you if you do or don’t want your mother to be there. It might be just one day, but it’s a ruined special day, isn’t it? We only get so many Christmases in our lifetime, and it’s not fair that “family” get to ruin them, especially when they have ruined so many already.
I’m hoping nobody shows up at my home this year. I liken them to massive spiders - they always pop up when I least expect it and put me into a panicking spin.

@CheekySnake it should be up to you if you have dm there on Christmas Day. Could she maybe just come for lunch rather than stay a few days

This will be my second Christmas with seeing dm and dsis which makes me sad as I don't know how many more Christmas dm will be around for but will try and make the best of it feeling a bit more hopeful that everything dsis has been doing will come out now office of public guidance have assigned it to an investigator and adult social services have reopened the case after I forwarded them an email from the first equity release company dsis tried where they explained dsis pretended to be dm texting originally then switched to it being her stating the money was for her to tide her over until she got money that was due to her. I presume she means her inheritance
No idea if the police will reopen the case they said they would if opg came up with something. Knew dsis was crap with money but never in a million years thought i would be dealing with this

Yes that's how I feel, that it's a ruined xmas, and we're going into it knowing it's ruined before it's even started because an xmas with her isn't what anyone wants. There's part of me feels that I already had a childhood of horrible Xmases that I used to dread. My parents specialised in making a fuss over the letter to santa and then not getting you what you'd asked for but you were not allowed to show any disappointment. The meal would be awful b/c we'd all be waiting for my father to lose his temper over the food/the expression on someone's face/people not being grateful enough/some other random unimportant thing, my grandmother would be there and would get drunk and the tension would be like a pillow over the face. I stopped spending xmas with my mother when she ruined my eldest child's first xmas with foul drunk behaviour and promised myself never again, and now here we are :(

My kids barely know her and will hide in their rooms. She isn't particularly nice to them anyway. Husband won't enjoy it because I will be anxious the whole time, though obviously he's less affected by her crap than I am because he doesn't have the baggage that I do.

And then obviously this situation is of my own making because when she said months ago that she wanted to spend xmas at ours, I was caught off guard and said yes. I'd just started therapy at that point and was trying to be positive about my relationship with her (she'd not long been widowed and seemed to take it as given that there would be increased contact as a result). What I didn't expect was to come out of the therapy thinking actually, this relationship is of no benefit to me, my anger is understandable and justified, she was and is a terrible parent, and that the pair of them basically made me chronically ill and wired to be constantly anxious and my entire life has been affected by it.

Husband's take on it is that I said yes and therefore have to honour that for this year and next time say no. I am desperately hoping that she'll change her mind.

@Spendysis sadly the distance means just the meal isn't possible :( (though obviously I am grateful for the distance the rest of the time!)

Just honestly don’t do it. Tell her you’ve all got flu and can’t host her. Don’t ever ask her to come in the future either, and don’t feel guilty about it. You don’t owe her anything.

In your shoes I think I would uninvite her. Make an excuse if you have to.
Its easy for your DH to say honour it, as like you say, he doesn’t have the baggage of Christmases past.
In this situation what your DH wants is irrelevant. It’s not going to effect him if she is not there.
Your mental health is what is important and also making your DC happy. It won’t be any fun for your DC either if they are stuck in their room hiding from toxic Grandma.
Imagine how much better you will feel and empowered by saying ‘no’ to her.
All of us on this thread need to make a stand against these toxic relatives somewhere. This could be your moment to put yourself first and make your stand.

I'm going to sit on it for 24 hours before I make a final decision. DH won't even discuss it with me, just rolls his eyes and refuses to talk. Storm brewing there, I think. He knows the history, he's seen her in action. I don't understand why he seems so determined that the visit is to happen and that there's no alternative. He said he doesn't want me to have regrets, but I just think what is there to regret?

Your mother, your decision. He is not affected by her as you are.

Some people have that rose-tinted nostalgic attitude towards Christmas, where you are supposed to put everything aside for family - people who haven’t been on the receiving end of family toxicity, like your DH. He might genuinely think he’s doing the right thing, and isn’t accepting the enormity of it for you.

The only real regret you could have is actually having her there and letting her ruin another Christmas! And I think that’s what I would say to him.
There won’t be anything to regret by saying no to her.

Once a narcissist is at the head of the family I think I’ve realised that the family is written off isn’t it? It is under complete control of the narc? I’m being avoided like the plague and have been having some funny looks from extended family members who don’t have enough contact with me to form any opinions of me but they seem to have them. Other then the other scapegoated lady the family are off limits to me aren’t they, no point in bothering to show them I’m a good person really?

@Happyfarm as long as they are trapped in FOG and the need to appease the narcissist is their main concern, then no, you can't bring them round. It's not personal.

That doesn't mean that you aren't your normal kind self, but I think don't waste it on people who aren't in a position to appreciate you.

It’s not even those who are in the FOG. This narc has the most superior and clear perfect image that other then the few of us on the outside no one in the family would EVER believe she wasn’t actually very nice. It must be me and the other few who are at fault as this persons character is flawless. I have been unable to infiltrate (if that’s the right word) the family at all. I don’t get how they manage to position themselves in complete control. Why are people so gullible?

Ive always looked at them with sympathy and empathy. I think this has gone now. This person is actually gaining pleasure out of behaving this way. I thought previously they were acting horrible but unintentionally but now I just think they are nasty horrible people who no longer deserve my empathy. I’ve been abused my whole life one way or another and I’d never ever want to behave in a way to gain pleasure out of someone’s suffering. This is real messed up stuff.

@Happyfarm with my father, I think it was a bit emperor's new clothes. Lots of people found him a bit off and didn't really like him, but as everyone else seemed to think he was great, they never said and pretended to like him. They thought they were the only one. He was also very fond of telling us that everyone thought he was great, which in hindsight probably wasn't true.

It's very convenient for them if everyone thinks they're alone in seeing a problem.

Has anyone ever outsmarted or outed a narcissist? Is this possible without looking mad yourself?

The question you need to ask yourself is why it's so important to 'win' as it were, and if this is healthy. Narcissists always need to win, it's one of their negative traits. Therefore the best way to deal with them is to refuse to play. Stop giving them attention and energy and headspace. You can't change their behaviour. All you can do is remove yourself from their orbit and stop playing the game.

I can’t remove myself without leaving my partner and I don’t want to do this. He is close to them and I am the scapegoat, he is the spare child. God I wish I could escape this as it’s in my face all the bloody time, we keep bumping into them bloody everywhere. With my ex it was easy as I just divorced and blocked.

You can work on your reaction to them, though, and stop giving them as much headspace. It's not easy but there are CBT techniques to help control the obsessing/ruminating. Sometimes that's all you can do.

I know. Sometimes I do so well. But then last night my partner shows me pictures of his bro and gf and kids with his mum and dad enjoying Xmas festivities and yet again we are not invited. It just upsets me but he isn’t bothered it seems. They all sat smiling and posing and I can’t take a picture of my kids with his mum as she ducks out of them all. Now I’m back to feeling a bit rubbish.

But you don't like these people. So why do you want to spend time with them? You know what they're like behind the scenes. Isn't it better to be away from that? To think phew, dodged a bullet there.

I know this is difficult and you feel excluded, and it's normal to feel angry/jealous/bitter about that. I get that.

In your position I would ask your partner to stop sharing photos like that with you. Ignorance is bliss. And I would work on doing your own activities and making your own Christmas traditions with your children.

You can't change his family. But you can choose not to carry the negative emotions forward more than you have to. The risk is that this will fester, and then it becomes something really unhealthy and damaging. You don't need their approval. You're fine without it.

Great advice from @CheekySnake

My motto for 2025 is "Live my own life"

I've missed out on so many things with my own family due to the narc's and decided enough is enough. Time is precious. Spend it with the ones that make you happy x

I know you are right.

@Happyfarm you can't change how they behave towards you but you can change how you react I know its hard I have struggled with going over and over everything but try not to allow them to much headspace it's only you that it's hurting and it won't change their behaviour towards you

@Happyfarm I know it's easier to give this advice than it is to actually follow it through, I fail with it myself on a regular basis. Most days I'm OK, some days I get so wound up and feel like my head is going to explode. Drives my DH up the wall. It's one of the reasons I think stately homes is great. It's a place where people who get it can talk you down from the ledge. x.