October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I know they expect me to be a certain way and I’m not this way so I’m on the outside.

So relatable.
My DH has a toxic family as well as me, but I’ve seen this through the eyes of friends over the years.
I feel the same. We are a mix of NC/LC with family, but the feeling of dread and anxiety I feel around possibly having to see the LC ones this time of year ruins everything.
I feel unheard and invalidated. It feels like everyone else within the family are allowed to have feelings, opinions and boundaries, but I’m not. It’s not even in my head though, that’s the reality of being the scapegoat. I’m treated as the awkward one. I was always emotionally abused and sucked it up. But when I eventually said ‘enough’, it became a me problem, I was being awkward.
I hate the damage they do. They ruin our lives and and there is nothing we can solidly do. NC and LC only works to a certain extent, but there are always the invisible family ties there.
I find it difficult knowing it’s always going to be there in the background for the rest of my life. My core beliefs about myself are the ones they created for me. I can go to therapy, I can try and retrain my brain to feel differently, but it’s just not going to go away, they aren’t going to go away and I’m always going to feel less than everyone else in the room.

I feel the same. Like it’s going to be with me till I die and my sole mission in life is to try and hold back as much dysfunction as possible from my children, including that from myself.

I just want to give you a big hug. We have someone like this in my family and it’s giving me an insight into how they might feel. The trouble is, we all love this person but they are full of shame and lack of self worth so have largely cut themselves off. It’s very painful for us as we don’t feel we can do anything.

I think she’s sounds a little different. No one has ever told me they love me. Apart from my ex and he was an abusive twat. If I heard those words and when I do feel comfortable with people I’m a completely different person. I’m just extremely sensitive with the wrong people. I don’t do hard people at all or the just get on with it people. Unfortunately I’ve not met a lot of people who I gel with but I’ve met a couple of very cool, very hippy down to earth people.

Your whole post really resonates, I think because I was expected to be very adult like (whilst they ranted raved and fought and screamed) and they operated a very shame based system, with each other and with me, you do things on your own don't you? When you are also generally anxious it's an added nightmare. I had lots of very risky sexual encounters in my early 20/s, was always very stressed and ill, I realise now that I felt that if someone liked me/fancied me that was sone kind of validation that I wanted/craved. I also later had an awful controlling boyfriend, but I had no good relationship role models and my mum was controlling as well.

I’m definitely ND, my oldest is under diagnosis currently. I really couldn’t do it on my own and it has caused me great anxiety. I really have struggled to navigate life on my own. I know it’s not supposed to have been this hard. My mum was also very controlling and often unwell. I can’t stand my childhood. Life is so hard when people judge you as an adult when all you need is some gentle guidance and some understanding. I’ve come to learn that humans are a very judgmental species.

Not caught up on the thread sorry
Just wanted to update you all got an email today from office of public guidance it has finally been assigned to an investigator only taken nearly 12 months after they agreed to look into my concerns let's hope they actually do something now

hi ive not been in the stately homes threads since the beginning of the year. I’ve had a tough year in all sorts of ways.

For anyone who remembers me I’m still LC/NC with my family all my siblings ignore me I speak to one parent once a week on the phone and the other parent once every few weeks whom I don’t even have an address for anymore.

anyway been a really bad month since March which turned into a year of bad months. i also had a milestone birthday this year which was not celebrated in any normal way and then my mother added salt to the wound by telling me about my BILs family get together for his big birthday a few months after mine. My family gathering for his birthday whilst I didn’t even get a phone call.

I’ve been ‘home’ once this year with my DP which was a disaster and horrendous. The only family member I actually saw was mum. It’s the only time I’m usually allowed to see dn’s and dn’s but my siblings told me that everyone was sick so I couldn’t (as far as I’m aware this was not true). So instead we spent a few days of our holiday at my mums sorting out (was supposed to be half a day) the garden, diy p, trips to the tip p, etc. all the things my siblings who live five minutes away could do. My mum was in a foul mood with me the whole time and didn’t even say thank you to me, I was battling anxiety and panic attacks to do the stuff. My DP found it hellish this time and it’s caused a few arguments between us during the holiday and after so we won’t be visiting anytime soon. We’ve been going through a really bad patch ever since so I honestly just hope I still have a DP by next year (20plus year relationship).

for anyone who remembers I was also going through a tough time with my old best friend. I’d saved up for a holiday for us both that then became a problem. Well she’s still not in proper contact but I carried on saving up and instead I treated myself to a lovely new shed for my garden. One of the best things I’ve ever done for myself.

Anyway that’s my yearly round up, life goes on and and I’m trying to make the most of it. Oh and I now also have two kittens so will have a cosy quiet Christmas with them.

i know Christmas and new year is such a tough time for most of us (last year I had a terrible time) so i just wanted to send everyone my warmest wishes xxx

Yes I say I’m self sufficient. But it’s not a healthy thing to be.
I do everything alone, I had a child as a teenager, I mixed with horrific men including abusers , no guidance and none to confide in as no or would care.
i will always be a loner because of this as I don’t trust people due to my family.

I think this has to be the absolute worst thing of all, Having no trust in people when we are biologically programmed to. The forced self sufficiency and the loneliness is awful. This has really brought to my attention the last couple of days how utterly at sea I feel in family situations. I’m worried how my children will be affected and if they will be affected by this issue of mine. I want them to feel at home with me but I can’t model it because I run from family situations.

@Happyfarm i find you so lovely and relatable. Do you have some ND friends you can hang out with? you have to find the right ones who are kind of on your wavelength but once you do it's like you can finally breathe with them. I found some good ones - ND but empathic and conscientious - on a Level 2 counselling course. In my experience, anyone you get on with is likely to be ND in some way and when you both stop masking that's amazing too.

@Tbry24 I'm dreading Xmas so thanks. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Why did they tell you? I mean why?

sheds are great - wish I had room for one - only got a courtyard.

my marriage is under strain too so I can relate. Hugs xx

@wonderingwonderingwondering first off I want to say I'm really happy for you that you have such a good DP/DH. You are lovely and you deserve it so much.

Reading about him made me feel quite unhappy though. Not because my husband isn't like that (he gets upset very easily). I can rationalise that and my husband isn't all bad. But because that's who i used to think my family was - exactly what you describe. We were the loving family that took in the wounded strays.

Now I find myself a wounded stray on the sidewalk. And I wonder, wtf?

Sorry, cry of pain.

I am genuinely glad for you and am cheering you on to create a better world for yourself xxx

I can relate, I went through a phase of casually sleeping with people and realised after it passed and my depression fog lifted that they all had one of the toxic traits of one of my parents - a different one each time. I was clearly subconsciously choosing them based on what was familiar to me.

@TorroFerney this really resonates with me, specifically what you say about someone fancying me, I too viewed it as validation that I was wanted. This is what really angers me about growing up in these families, the impacts are so long lasting. Because my parents were abusive, in every way, I would seek love from anyone. I had some horrible boyfriends in my teens but stuck with them because they “showed me love”, what an awful version of love I accepted. And this view of love, relationships and people in general has impacted every aspect of my life and how I approach life, work and situations. This is what I can’t forgive my parents for. In fact it was in therapy the other day that I reached this conclusion. How dare people take something so precious from another human being, you end up so vulnerable to further abuse, suffer low self esteem and lack of self worth, the list is endless. It’s only now, entering year 5 of therapy that I’m finding my peace with my decision to maintain NC. I want to recommend this book I’m reading at the moment for anyone struggling with that negative voice in their heads: “No Bad Parts” by Richard Schwartz. It’s amazing.

@fargothedepartedmine i want to say how sorry I am for what you endured in childhood, what have witnessed recently and what you continue to endure. I can relate to what you have experienced, in a different way, but involving my mother. These women are sick, there is something seriously wrong with them and they are unsafe to be around. I’m glad you’re in therapy but I also appreciate how hard this kind of personal work is. Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better, now is the time to put your needs and wants first, I’d go so far as to say it’s essential that you do in order to recover. As I said above, it’s taken me a number of years to truly understand this.

I chose men who who told me what to do because I’ve never known or been taught how to listen to myself. My mum was also super controlling so no wonder really.

@junebugalice thank you, I’m sorry you had to endure that too. I relate to what you said to @TorroFerney, it paved the way for a vicious cycle of very low self-worth and bad choices which led to further abuse, always seeking love and validation from the wrong people, because there was no one else.

How dare people take something so precious from another human being

I felt this very strongly watching those videos. I’d built up an image of a bad child. But I saw that I wasn’t bad, I was constantly smiling and happy and content in my own little world. As the video and the years went on I watched myself change into someone sad and withdrawn. I watched the remaining 45 minutes last night. Fortunately there was nothing else horrible, but the final few seconds of the final ‘episode’, New Year’s Day 1997, broke my heart. My dad wanted to film me in the snow, but without saying a word I turned my back on him and slowly walked away, head down, shoulders slumped, and he just stands there silently as the camera captures me disappearing into the distance. I realised I remembered that day, and how bad I felt for ignoring him, but by then my mother had filled my head with so much poison about him that I felt like any other response would have been a betrayal.

Afterwards I snapped and ended up confronting my mum about her sick and twisted behaviour I saw in the video and how I won't be sending her anything because it would be illegal for me to do so. Once I got going I couldn't stop and let loose about how she'd destroyed my relationship with my father and how I will never have the chance to make it right.

She hasn't replied. She hasn't even asked me what the sick and twisted clip in the video was, or why it would be illegal for me to send it. Surely a person who thought they were innocent would respond immediately wanting to know what illegal behaviour they were being accused of? I feel totally out of my depth. There's no guide on how to process this.

@fargothedepartedmine please make sure you’re being very kind to yourself at the moment as, honestly, watching those videos could be at worst re-traumatising and at best, very upsetting. I have done similar to you in the past in that I confronted my NM and EF (although he was v abusive himself so confused about that label for him) with my reasons for why I was so angry with them and I was met with denials, deflections and hysteria. I don’t regret doing it but I was unprepared for the feelings I felt while they denied my reality. It was disgusting really. Like you, my NM would tell me very negative stuff about my father, she loved to emasculate him by saying he was useless and not a man and that she could have got this man or other. Truly disgusting stuff that stays with you. Normal people/parents aren’t meant to do that, and the simple fact is that I normalised it and then had to go out and face the world as an adult but totally ill prepared to do so, I was like a lamb to the slaughter really.

In terms of how you deal with this, I think you are doing all the right things. Continue to engage in therapy, ensure your experiences are being validated because you will 100% not get that from your family. I think with time, time to process the trauma, betrayal and abuse you will heal. I didn’t allow myself enough time to truly recognise what had been done to me, I tried LC and it made me physically and mentally unwell. Just to give you a bit of hope, I’m NC with parents, v LC with sis (haven’t seen her in 1.5 years) and I’ve never felt more happy and at peace and, for the first time in years, I’m looking forward to Christmas with my husband and kids as I’m finally in a place that I recognise how lucky I am to have recognised the abuse so that I could spare my kids from a similar fate. It’s a long process but you have already achieved so much.

I have no idea why I was told or why in that way. I was told very nastily on the phone the night before the big get together. My mum always denies my siblings have been blanking and excluding me for over 4 years now so as this is a perfect example of what they do do I don’t know why I was told, my mum downplays it all and tells me I’m imagining it normally.

My opinion since is that my mum was being very mean spirited and cruel and I don’t actually know why or the reason. I don’t say that lightly as I’ve endured 50years of awfulness but not like this, this was very different than hoe things normally are.

I stood up for myself calmly as I try to maintain boundaries, it was a phone call, by saying I’m going to go now and explaining which bit I had the biggest problem with. I then hung up. And then I cried for the whole weekend. Mum then didn’t speak to me for ages and still hasn’t properly like I’m the problem.

So next year I’m going into the year with just myself, my adult child, my kittens and my partner (if we get through the next year). I will speak to both of my parents on the phone but that’s always on their terms. I don’t want anything to do with anyone else anymore including all my other relations, my best friend and my partners family.

It just feels a bit terrifying that I’m literally all alone in the world, silly really as I’ve always been alone and brought my child up alone but I live hundreds of miles from my home town so I am very isolated.

And yes I’m very lucky to have been able to fit a shed in.

Fargo have you seen the NAPAC website? Perhaps there's something on that or a helpline number, that would be of use to you in addition to this thread.

I describe it as a type of wound that has healed over to some degree or other but left scar tissue behind. It doesn't take much rubbing on that scar tissue to repen it again. So I understand so clearly what you are saying. I am the same and I didn't have a fraction of what you have had to deal with from your parents .
I was only saying this to my husband the other day as I am reaching a milestone birthday and I was relecting that after many years of working on myself and dismantling my mind set to try to rebuild it has dawned on me that it is almost impossible to lay a firm foundation for myself. Whatever I build will be somewhat rocky becauseI I cannot completely relay the foundations I need. .
You express it v well...the fear of looking forward to something and allowing yourself to be truly happy and seeing others who are so comfortable in their skin as it is something alien to you !

yeah, it's not alien to me - I lost it in my 50s. Almost wish I had got abusive parents, it would make more sense. But maybe I never had it.

@Tbry24 I remember we met on my original thread where I was getting castigated for being the problem, with my very sensible family taking appropriate steps to sort me out. You were nice.

I'm so sorry to hear you cried for a week. I can relate. I'm so sorry you feel so alone. I do to. How is your kid doing?

I need kittens.

@VWSC3 I am the same - my mother is coming to stay for a few days at Xmas (we've been LC for years, haven't spent Xmas with her for 20 years) and I'm so stressed already that I can't sleep properly and am having nightmares. Burst into tears this morning because I'm so wound up about it ☹️. It's my own fault - I shouldn't have agreed to it in the first place. I told DH that I was thinking of telling her to make alternative arrangements but he said the all too predictable what if she ends up on her own/it's only a few days/just ignore her etc etc. I struggle with Xmas as it is. Too many shitty childhood ones where I was expected to smile and pretend I was happy.

(For background - NC with abusive father since late teens. Domestic violence/coercive control/ drug use. Marriage ended b/c mother left him for someone else. Realised once he was out of the picture that she was selfish/self-absorbed/mean/thoughtless and abusive in her own way (parentification), and once I had my own kids, could barely stand to be in the same room as her.)