October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I'm sorry you're a scapegoat.

lol thanks, I might get a badge! 😂

Well the person sat in the car that seemed to have been watching us for weeks on end has finally stopped. Though I shouldn’t speak too soon. It has been very unsettling.

I’ve had more flying monkeys contacting me asking me specific direct questions for info on my life that are so blatantly from Head Narc. If you are asked specific questions how do you deal with it? When you know it’s all likely to get back to your abuser?

Christmas is around the corner and I must say I’m dreading it. Anyone else? There is always some entitled family member trying to trample all over it. Either turning up unexpectedly hammering our door down (always aggressive from the outset), or sending manipulative and/or abusive messages, or standing on our doorstep yelling through our letterbox. Every year since NC with my family and LC with DHs we have had someone try to disrupt every single celebration of ours, especially Christmas.

Last year we had a flying monkey turn up at 1pm Christmas Day just as I was dishing up our Christmas dinner. This person had messaged Christmas Eve night saying they might drop by Christmas Day morning (inviting themselves over). We said it wasn’t convenient and we had plans with the children, they turned up anyway hammering the door down! We didn’t answer (because we had already said no and they ignored that), but it is still horrible having that stress and then the guilt of ‘but it’s Christmas Day and they are faaamily’.
Hows everyone else feeling about Christmas?

I had a few minutes of complete truth today. It felt good.

A relative said something very complimentary about how well I'm looking after my Mum and Dad (they are both elderly and in ill health). The relative said it to a family friend which is how I heard about it BUT the family friend had also said this to the Golden Child sibling!

Golden Child is now all out of whack and doesn't know what to do as the narrative of their stories about me has changed (for this afternoon at least!). Lol!

I wonder what Golden Child will do next?

Love it when something like that happens.
You deserve this x

The truth I think always does come out in the end. We are good people. Must have felt nice to hear it for a change! I bet GC is busy trying to arrange something to make them to look better. I had to laugh at our Goldenchild, has had to outdo everyone with their xmas lights and now the neighbours have complained at the ridiculous amount they have on. 😂 Keep it nice and simple and effective I say!

Loving these wins.

I've been really depressed and sent anguished texts to my sister. Listening to podcasts on narcissism. But in that state I also got in touch with some friends and expressed some needs to some people.

fireworks below are for the wins.

Well I’m feeling shit. MIL invited everyone to a Christmas event, I kindly declined. It’s just no fun being the one she doesn’t talk to let alone look at. I want to go but not under these circumstances so I said sorry I have plans. My partner is going with our daughter without me. This just doesn’t feel good does it!

@Happyfarmwhy on earth would you want to spend time with people who have made it clear they don't like you. You are still playing their game and enmeshed in the drama, that's why it doesn't feel good.

Oh @Happyfarm as someone who is still hee-hawing on the edge - it may be the worst place to be - I feel your pain.

I'm amazed that you were able to say no - I'm not sure I could, I'd probably go, but do some dissociating and put all my energies into behaving perfectly so I wouldn't give them any amunition against me. I'd also cope by taking notes for the revenge-novel I'll one day write.

If I wasn't going to go, I'd make my refusal really stealthy. I'd try NOT to send a message. Because again, that would be twisted by the narc. Rather than feedback about how they make others feel, they'd twist it into evidence that I'm a bad person. Yet again, it would hand them amunition.

All the while desperately wanting to scream in their face 'you bitch you heartless bitch'.

Anyway I doubt that helps but I feel you.

I suppose deep down I’d love to be part of a family and do Christmas stuff together. My heart is sore and also I’m a bit miffed that dp is taking little one to play a part in this .

Apparently she said it’s a shame I can’t make it and she’d prefer us all together. Why tho when she doesn’t talk to me.

My older daughter is with her dad that weekend and there is no way I’d go to this event without both my children so it’s a firm no from me. They don’t really acknowledge my eldest as part of the family despite being in it since she was 3. I absolutely don’t do this! They won’t re-schedule for me.

I get the feeling she isn’t thinking about the feelings of other people. Only she has decided wants to do something and we must come along and play along to the image she has of herself. Isn’t she a great person and grandmother for taking the kids somewhere. Truth is I haven’t heard from her in months. She is of no value to our family, doesn’t visit, doesn’t call to speak to them, not interested outside of herself. I probably come across as selfish but I only place my energy on family who make effort with my little family. Those who help us and care about how we are doing and enable us to be a better little family. I’ve explained before that I don’t feel comfortable going without both my children and how my biggest one (has ADHD) feels very rejected when she has missed something good because court says she has to spent EOW with her dad. It’s a firm boundary of mine that she doesn’t consider worthy. Does this boundary sound silly to you?

@Happyfarm why do you even care what her motivations are? You give her all your available energy and headspace. Just go NC for a few months to look at your own behavior as to why you spend so much time analysing her, she doesn't give a shit. Your constant focus on her is distracting you from living your life. It is pointless procrastination, put your energy into your children, friends, hobbies anything other than obsessing about HER. Start building the life you want, model healthy behavior to your kids, this is where generational dysfunction starts, watching the parent.

@binkie163 You are right. I wish I could just turn my brain off!

@Happyfarm it is easy, just stop it. Your brain can only hold one thought at a time, every time you start obsessing replace it with a positive thought, like your love for your children or what you are cooking for dinner, stop indulging in negativity. You can retrain your brain, your neural pathways at the moment go directly to negative shit, you must practice positive thoughts until it becomes 2nd nature, new habits take 3 weeks but you need to remove the problem by going NC until you learn to regulate your emotions.
Your current mindset is harmful to yourself and kids, they need a strong, happy, healthy (non obsessing) role model. They don't want to see their parents being ridiculed as it damages how they see themselves.
Edited to say, keep busy, do stuff, go for a walk instead of feeling sorry for yourself that she doesn't like you. Your best revenge is to live your life and not give a shit

Erm you shouldn't be taking your other child to witness this shitshow. It's harmful to children. Your shared child you don't have full control over it but your other child you do. Protect her. She hasn't missed something good, she's missed something bad - seeing her mum ignored and outcast.

On another subject, does anyone know why narcissistic supply is whatever it is? Why do they want to know every tiny personal detail of my life (which I don't and never have wanted to give since pre-teen years, but was forced to by the type of control freakery abusive spouses resort to, until I was used to it and trained to it and considered it normal)? I can't even understand what they get out of it, except perhaps as gossip fodder. They like to bitch about my siblings to me, so probably do the same about me to them. I first put them on an information diet when I realised, through a slip of someone's tongue, that my personal life was being talked about by them to/with their friends.

Yet the minute I learned I didn't have to go along with all this, didn't have to give information, didn't have to listen to or give opinions on gossiping and instead started trying to have normal, ordinary conversations about normal, ordinary things - suddenly they withdraw, only popping up now and again to try the same shite they always tried, with the wanting information and bitching about relatives. It's like they thought, "well you won't tell me how many times you farted before breakfast, how often you have sex, the colour/brand/size of today's bra [have you put on weight then? And how did you even afford that?!] or the exact address including postcode [and just wait a second while I get a pen will you!] of every house you're viewing, so I won't bother telling you about my new hobby, my promotion, how my recent holiday was or that your grandad nearly died last month".

I can't fathom why, if they supposedly want to know all about me and be part of my life, they don't want to be part of my life and have ordinary nice conversation that doesn't involve bitching, gossiping or knowing absolutely everything personal. Why is gossiping, bitching and knowing everything "supply" and a normal healthy conversation isn't? They're both attention. They'd actually be getting more attention if they indulged in the latter because I wouldn't feel so driven to avoid them to the extent I'm thinking of going NC. It can't be because they're thick and haven't figured it out yet, because I remember saying similar to them during the turbulent (because I was sick of their shit already) teen years. Although I'd have worded it a bit differently because I didn't know about narcissism then.

It doesn't change anything because I realize they won't change, I'm just curious about it because it makes no sense to me.

@SamAndAnnie I keep wondering about this information gathering too. It used to confuse me so much that they would show so much 'interest' in these things, but then were never really interested in ME as a person, my needs, boundaries etc.

I still don't quite have the answer, except I used to be like this too because it was what I learnt. This information gathering and judging about others actually kept me away from myself. I didn't connect with myself, my needs, my flaws etc. it was a massive distraction and projection . And let's face it...they are never judging in the other person's favour. They always twist it in a way so in their head they come out as 'better, less flawed, wiser' etc. I believe it's a kind of dissociation as well.

@SamAndAnnie I think the reason they get their supply through gossip and information gathering is so they can have control over your information - to take control of your own information away from you (to destabilise you) and also as @Twatalert said - to twist your information and throw you under the bus in order to make them look better in everyone else’s eyes, and you to look shit.
A narcissist has to win and come out on top by gathering information on you, they gain ammunition to use against you and it makes them feel important. They put themselves in charge of who knows what about you. Mine has also pushed their way into every aspect of my life. I think in their minds they think they are like God.
The biggest Narc I’m related to is currently desperately using flying monkeys to try and glean specific information about my life from me. It’s sad and pathetic really. I find it infuriating that people carry out the Narcs orders though.
The more I analyse it I think that Narcs don’t want to have normal conversations because they don’t actually care about their target/scapegoat. Conversations are just a power game to them. The more they can make you feel uncomfortable, the more they ‘win’. That’s all they actually care about. They like to drag someone down to make themselves feel better, and then they have to keep you down at all costs.

That makes a lot of sense twat and VWS. Also why they seem offended/upset/angry when I won't go along with it. I'm behaving like a normal person but in doing so I'm taking something away from them, if they're using me for their own sense of security. They'd have to look themselves in the eye and face who they are and how they feel, if they can't distract themselves by using me. Yes it's as if they don't care at all not one little bit, that's exactly it, which was confusing me if they supposedly want to be part of my life. I think I've perhaps been guilty of mistaking control freakery for interest. The only thing they have ever wanted to know is where I've been, what I've been doing and who with. Plus deeply personal information. No interest at all in any hobbies, jobs etc or in how I feel and why (life's ordinary ups and downs). So any upset at not seeing me is all about their feelings about themselves, it's got nothing to do with wanting to spend time with me, just about using me. I wouldn't even have to be me, I could be anyone, they just want to use someone. I've never tried to stop them seeing me either, I've just been refusing to do it on their (inconvenient) terms, that's all. I suppose whatever anger they have for me, somebody else will cop it when I go NC.

@SamAndAnnie That is 100% it - they are control freaks, and they only care about themselves in reality. When I first started withholding information from mine I was called controlling by them for doing so (but the reality is I’m meant to be in control of my own personal information, it was them who was abnormally controlling by trying to force me to tell them stuff for their own nasty gain).
I think Narcs treat their scapegoats like a stress ball. They take all of their frustrations out on them (us).
What I will say is , NC doesn’t always eliminate the problem. I’m NC with my side of the family and there are ALWAYS flying monkeys willing to do their dirty work for them. Sadly people I thought of as close to me have even joined the Narcs circus.

TBH I've been pulling away for years subconsciously. I may have said which friends I'd been with, but for the most part they wouldn't have known these people if they came across them. Once we didn't live in the same town and they'd never known my friends it was even easier. I used to be linked to family on social media but at the point I got engaged I did an absolutely brutal cull of all family and anyone who knows/knew them socially or through work, all blocked. Self preservation I suppose. So the only possible flying monkeys are going to be relatives. I already don't tell any of them anything I don't want narcs to know.

I'm fully expecting to have to go NC with everyone else too if they give me a hard time over it. I'm not going to start explaining my reasons why. I'm not interested in being judged on whether they think NC is justified. So relatives possibly won't understand what's happened at all and will take narc's "side". Not that I'll be making anyone choose sides but that seems to be the way these things go and I won't tolerate people in my life who disapprove of me/my decisions/my behaviour.

Stress ball, yes, good description. I was definitely turned into their emotional support human from a young age and had to listen to endless complaining about various people I'd never met.

@SamAndAnnie I was told by an IDVA many years ago that is had to do with power. If you set a boundary then it’s like a red flag to them and they get power from stepping over it. I think it may be the same with info gathering, it makes them feel powerful and they need to be the ones who know the most, have the most etc etc. If they have all the knowledge then they are the person everyone turns to when they want to know something making them feel powerful. I think there may be a sense of you belong to me no matter how far you think you can go and I’ll prove it. I personally thought think it a power trip for them.

Stress ball, yes, good description

My therapist also had a good description. She said I'd been the "family dustbin" from a young age.
All the rubbish put into me and lid put on.

@SamAndAnnie you nailed it. I have exactly the same experience. It's the fact gathering they do and then to gossip about it. I mistook it for genuine interest too.

My mother would want to know where I am, what I'm doing, who with etc. but when I wanted to tell them something, for example from a holiday, they couldn't have cared less. It's utterly bizarre. The most important thing to them was that I'd come home and when and then they wouldn't want to hear about some of the great things I had experienced and seen. It's like they were missing me in my function of the scapegoat when I was away and they needed me back in my role and only then they were okay.