October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Hi well I have finally taken back some control for my own mental health.

Would ring my parents every Sunday at 11 and found I was getting so down Sunday mornings. So now I phone at adhoc times and days. My mum can’t prepare for my call but I can. One small change feels so much better for me.
i know she hates it but I don’t care. Means I can control the conversation and actually give her minimum information about our lives ! Going LC is the best thing I have done. This Sunday morning has been so stress free !

hope everyone is ok this weekend x

@Twatalert they don't get it because they have never been listening and frankly don't care. Us not doing as we are told inconveniences them, so they get angry and start the victim shit '
I was curious about the gransnet section on 'adult child alienation' jeeeez there's some really angry pissed off people on there, all claim they've done everything for ungrateful children, no idea why they've gone nc. Acting completely dumb and shocked it put my hackles up.
They can't behave, we HAD to put up with it as children we don't as adults.
Some threads Mil can't understand why son and Dil go NC and then list all the ways they interfere in son's life. It takes a certain kind of stupidity and blindness.

@binkie163 yes you are right. Whenever I hear of these stories it's the adult child I side with because I know what it must have taken them to get there. The utter tragedy it is to admit to yourself that your parent probably doesn't love you etc.

I’ve also noticed with such people that the reasons their adult children give them for the lack of contact are missing, these toxic people write very little in terms of detail. They to my mind know full well why they’ve been cut off. There is nothing those adult children can do about their wilfully deaf parents.

They often think that NC is the result of one incident.

And because we put up with batshit behavior for years, they think we are being uppity as it 'never bothered us before'
Honestly banging your head on the wall!

I thought that I was doing ok with understanding all what’s happened and happening within my family and my partners. But we had a morning with In-laws and golden child’s family where I was avoided “again” and I just feel sad. I don’t expect to be welcomed, I understand the dynamics, it’s loud and clear, I don’t want anything from this family but I realised I will have to spend forever without even having one. I’ve pulled away emotionally and have accepted my situation but this acceptance feels no better as now I’m just sad. I go because my partner wants his relationship and his kids relationship with his parents but it’s comes at the cost of my literal existence when we occupy the same space. It’s hard to keep doing this because it is a reminder that I won’t have what they have (even though what they have is dysfunctional). I don’t want the dysfunction just a normal family. The mum is literally denying me what she knows I’ve always wanted, that is incredibly sick!

"adult child alienation" sounds like a deliberate hobby, like gardening or cooking

CFs. Tell them to pay for it out of his estate.

That’s what we have done @Ellie56 They moaned about probate taking time etc and that the dad flower display was costing £200, it’s a struggle for their mother and that she shouldnt have to bear any costs and that my mother should contribute blah blah … I have been polite and respectful but not friendly and not a penny has come from my side of the family. Not a peep since the showy funeral. They have spent all his money, including pension drawdown! Poor lambs now have to fund their own lifestyle, I think they thought the gravy train was going to run a while longer.

We are keeping radio silence. Some blended families may work through some mumnetter eyes but it reality I think for a lot it is shit. Funerals and inheritance is when the shit hits the fan.

My inlaws came for dinner last night, along with my DH's aunt. I spent the day making a cheese cake, Gluten free brownies for FIL who is celiac and prepping a roast. It was a lovely, wholesome evening. They brought gifts, praised my cooking, told me how healthy I was looking, complimented our home which we've been doing a bit of DIY work on the last while. Asked about my friends, the pilates class I've started, recent social things I've had. Then MIL texted thanking me afterwards.

I can't help but compare these things to my own parents. Firstly they'd never come without GC sibling tagging along, they've visited a total of 2 times in 5 years. It's always us going to them. My body would start reacting and tensing up in the car journey. I'd have to think of generic lines to feed them about my work situation (quit a job a few months ago to focus on my health), my mother would be fussing around the kitchen, GC would be doing her usual GC One Woman Show dominating conversation talking about her work, how much her home extension costed, how much she made last week, her taxes, always something gloaty and crass. I'd sit there withering at the kitchen table. I'd be fed something I don't eat and asked if I like something I've never eaten like fish, or cheese. Minor but always happens, always reminds me they're never paying attention to me. Mum would go off in tangents about the neighbours down the road who bought a second home in Spain, or someone I went to school with 20 years ago who got promoted, or had a baby, or bought another house. I'm dealing with fertility issues, in the middle of a career change, dealing with health issues - all of which she knows, but doesn't seem to see the harm in rubbing these things in my face.

And the sob stories. Her arthritis, some worrying symptoms she's getting tested for, issues with my older mentally ill sibling, how stressed GC is. Enough to make sure I leave feeling small, invisible, and so guilty for not helping or visiting more.

It's just so opposite, such a brutal comparison. It helps me to compare, to remind myself I'm not crazy or selfish or overexaggering or "abandoning" my family because I'm an ungrateful git that doesn't care about anyone.

Me lol!

Does anyone else feel like if they can know enough about people’s behaviour then they will be able to keep themselves safe, especially from the feelings of rejection?

This totally!! Completely oblivious to the absolute lifetime of suffering they caused! Everything conveniently forgotten or in their eyes, never even happened!

Exactly. Sometimes I think they know full well that they treated me like crap, and other times I believe they are so much in denial. No idea what is true. But I do not believe that they have ZERO clue.

Did they really not know that they should have respected me as a human even as a child? That they can't treat me in a way they don't allow to be treated themselves? Did they really not see the double standards, even when I pointed them out AS A CHILD? Did they ever feel bad for shouting me down and intimmidating me into obedience? How exactly did they plan to raise their child? I read on MN how parents want to prepare their kids for the world and want them to become rounded individuals and have lots of different experiences as they grow up. Did my parents ever think any of this? Or were they just worried that I would 'step out of line', meaning that they could not control me and my life the way they wanted. No idea.

Sometimes I even get sad for them, that they will never fully wake up and my father in particular has wasted his life in the hands of a narc as a victim and co-narc. But then I see he is STILL not really addressing anything for himself, wants to live this life and wants me back in it. I do not understand how he has been stuck in this for 70 years and I have been working to break away since I was about 12. It puzzles me so much. Like how on earth do you never question anything.

I think I'm past this. I feel like the cause of others behaviour is of far less importance than the effects of that behaviour on my own well-being.

I'm not any kind of doctor, much less a psychiatrist or psychologist. I could try to work out others behaviour and it's causes until the end of time, none of it would make any difference to my own well-being.

Understanding their behaviour can make me realise it's not me, but so can trust in myself (I know I'm not a dickhead) and acceptance that I don't have to understand something for it to exist (it will exist regardless).

I can understand and acknowledge others are being unreasonable without needing to know why. What really matters (and where I need to focus my energies) is what effect their behaviour has on me and what I'm going to do about that.

My personal choice is to avoid the behaviour that's causing me a problem. If that means avoiding certain people altogether and indefinitely, then that's what I'll do. I've already tried other ways to protect myself from their behaviour, such as setting boundaries. They mostly don't respect them and won't stop continuously trying to break them down, which then requires emotional energy from me to both see it occuring and then shore up my boundaries so they're not trampled on. Those boundaries they do respect isn't done from a place of understanding or acceptance of my stance, it's done from a place of I'm the problem so they'll tiptoe round me (which creates an atmosphere) to avoid "setting me off". The only thing setting me off (aka causing me to leave/walk away) is their unreasonable and toxic behaviour, no tiptoe required, just basic human decency (which they appear incapable of). I've tried explaining things from my perspective, in the hopes they'd change their behaviour if they knew how it affected me. That had no significant or lasting positive effect on them.

No amount of me understanding them is going to prevent me suffering the effects of their behaviour. The only worthwhile point of me understanding is so I realise they won't change, in turn enabling me to realise I have to walk away. Beyond that, any understanding things about them is just about satiating my own curiosity, it isn't going to change my life at all.

I'm quite a simple creature though. Someone causes me some form of harm, means I don't want contact with that person. It's that simple for me.

If I found most people caused me harm, I'd go see a therapist to work out where I'm going wrong in life (because either the problem would be me being too easily harmed or I'd be ending up somehow surrounded by the wrong kind of people, which would also be a "me" problem). As it is, I get along fine with most people, have no trouble making friends or keeping in touch with people when I want to, enjoy others company on the whole (within the limits of my introvert nature), so I know the problem isn't that I'm bad/difficult/troublesome. Perhaps others exist in a more complicated world but for me it's fairly easy - strip away the details to get down to the fundamental basics, then put things into the categories of good versus bad and deliberately step away from the bad.

You know those special occasion cards that say "if friends [or whoever] were flowers, I'd pick you"...well, some people in my life are nettles and I don't want to touch them. No amount of wishing they were daisies will make it so.

Well said.

Yep, if someone causes me anxiety or discomfort I'm out. I don't need to know why, I'm not even interested, if they make me uncomfortable, that is reason enough.
I never went the therapy route, I don't want to hash over stuff. In my early 30's I cut out anyone who didn't make me feel good and been that way ever since. I have good friends but I don't need friends, I'm not afraid to be on my own.
Those who stay in dysfunction are trying to cajole and change unwilling people. Which is ironic really as that's exactly what they are trying to do to us, co dependency is controlling on both sides.

That seems a bit of a slash and burn way to live your life. As long as you have friends though that’s the main thing. It’s off you say you don’t need them though. You sound a bit mechanical and cold.

I have in the past had issues with co-dependency. I’d say my abusive marriage was kind of co-dependant. We both
brought issues into it, but he was more angry and scary. I think we both needed each other for self esteem. My issue now is whether I am a problem or they are a problem. Am I walking away because I’m being childish and I expect too much or not. Am I right to need things from relationships, should I just accept what it is and be civil? I have people in my life who do make me feel good, but then I have an awful lot of people who don’t (mostly family.

@Obsessedwithsourdough I am high functioning autistic so yes very mechanical. Life is too short not to slash and burn, who wants to sit in misery.
@Happyfarm family is the tricky one and sets unrealistic expectations of relationships.Their wants and needs versus our wants and needs, someone has to capitulate.
Happiness and comfort are my guidelines, I find it very easy to withdraw from anything that makes me uneasy. Not so easy with family because it is emotionally complicated with a ton of baggage. When you walk away and see it clearly, it really is that simple. It is a choice.

My mum is Autistic. She doesn’t connect with me and does I think stay away because my emotional self makes her uncomfortable. I end up hating and fighting my emotions because if I wasn’t like this then we’d be ok probably. For example I should be completely over me abusive marriage of 12 years by now (5 years ago) but I still suffer and I co-parent so I do get triggered (but I’m not allowed). I can’t mention anything to her which means I can never be myself.

@SamAndAnnie they are really good points about not having to know why they behave like that and to concentrate on the effect on you instead . I can’t remember where I read it but I like the snake analogy, if a snake bites you you wouldn’t go up to it and ask why it had bitten you you’d get far away from it. We do tend to expend a lot of energy asking why.

I think perhaps it’s because we haven’t been brainwashed to believe the snake is a friend. We are all told to stay away from snakes. Parents are wired from birth to be friend. I could walk from a friend easily.

@Happyfarm yes very difficult. I run away screaming from weakness and neediness, it is suffocating for me after a lifetime of needy family. I am a very practical person, I get things done, I don't want to talk about it, doing stuff doesn't need discussion. My mum wants to dissect everything and to me it is navel gazing, unnecessary energy and procrastination. Mostly my mum wasn't looking for solutions she just wanted to moan and suck up all the oxygen.
You cannot get on with everyone, you cannot make people like you or please everyone, so for me it is easier to please myself. The people who are important in my life understand that and love/ accept me exactly as I am.
You cannot force jigsaw pieces to fit, they either fit or don't, it isn't personal.
It isn't a case of are you the problem or them, it is that it is a problem for you. As Denzel Washington said, if you don't like your world/reality, change it. Learn when to let go, move on and make better choices. To keep doing the same thing expecting different results is madness.