October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@FriendlyReminder yes low contact left me anxious so I went NC. Goodbye anxiety and jumping every time the phone rang.
You can't heal from a toxic family if you stay within it.

@FriendlyReminder We are NC with my nightmare family, but we are LC with DHs family. This amounts to his family basically trying to disrupt every special occasion. We both get a stress response in the run up to it, knots in stomach, nausea, and yes colds. Sometimes the colds can be convenient because we use it as a reason to get out of seeing them! But it definitely has an effect on our health.

Hi @DowntheDrainpipe . I'm glad you found comfort in my post. And glad that you've had time to catch up on sleep and take care of yourself in this complicated time.

The more you post, the more clear it is that you've done the emotional work around your past and the pain of who your father was. And that has allowed enough emotional separation for you to show up as a responsible and caring adult now, doing all of the hard work around his passing, while others are falling apart. I've learned one thing since my own therapy, and it's that it's really really rare for people to get to where you are - to have dealt with their past, processed the difficult feelings, grieved and raged for the things they never got, to be able to move on and create something better for themselves. It actually reminds me of Victor Frankl's message in Man's Search for Meaning about letting go and inner freedom, it's incredible to have been through the wars and to look at that, process it, feel it all and then decide that the past is the past, it's time to create something better for yourself. That you deserve that, and that pain and rage doesn't define you or really have any big role in creating something better now. We all deserve that, and I think you should be SO proud that you've been able to find that for yourself. I feel like it's the unhealed around you that might tell you to expect something else right now, or tend to over-lean on you even though as you say, the family dynamic has been a certain way up to this point.

I do think it's incredibly important for you to really put yourself first through this period too though. Just because you "can", doesn't mean you "should" have to take on all the admin and being the shoulder to cry on, etc, for other family members that aren't able for it. I've found myself in that role, too, and I have to consciously remind myself that I'm not responsible for the family unit, or anyone else's feelings, as much as I do love my family and care for their well-being.

Wishing you continued strength and healing x

Has anyone had a parent who’s high functioning autistic (but never diagnosed)and you’ve never made any sense to them? They raised you with no abuse but unaware that they squashed your emotional self because they see no importance in it? Nothing was done malicious or narcissistic but their value system was totally different.

Sorry for the multi-post, but this was really lovely to read and so kind of you too, @DowntheDrainpipe

I've realised this year that constant family exposure leaves me feeling silenced, disempowered, like the "black sheep" all over again and that's a role that I've taken into other relationships, workplaces, etc. Like you learn to expect to not have any power in situations, to be invisible, or rejected and it just perpetuates. Now that I'm out of it, I 100% see that in my most recent corporate job. Every single day I felt triggered and like that "black sheep" despite the fact that I had one of the most senior jobs in the company.

I think I've made progress in letting that go a little recently, thanks to some amazing people around me, like my husband who just thinks I'm the dog's boll1x no matter what I do or say (god love him..!) but equally sees the anger and has a lovely, light way of pointing it out (he calls it my "angry gremlin"!). And changing my inner voice, not letting myself away with the "ahhh no-one cares about me, I feel so alone" stuff and changing that narrative for myself moment to moment.

You're so right about not sharing the things that matter with these people that can't SEE you and can take away from your goodness. It's hard to hold, but for me so important to acknowledge the hard "AND" here - 1. they're my family, most of the hurt they've inflicted was not intentional, they're victims of themselves too in that regard, the generational trauma is SO huge and 2. I need as much space as I can get from them, and interactions will always have to be limited, with lots of subjects that are no-gos because they simply are never going to change.
It's hard. I'm still working on it.

Hi I am joining this thread for some help and support.
i have been reading through and think I have found my people !
it’s taken me a long while to realise my parents were abusive in many ways.
its only as my kids have grown up I have reflected on how we were treated.

there is, of course, a golden child, DS. But me and db argue over who is the black sheep ! It’s all been brought to the surface for me because my brother came over from Canada for a visit. Talking about our childhood in depth, my husband and children have been really shocked and supportive. They didn’t realise how bad things had been. I think they thought it was just me complaining.
am trying hard to go LC but the backlash is hard. They are late eighties now which makes it trickier in a way.
hugs to everyone. Xx

Hi @Lostdaughter66 in a home like this all children are being abused, even the golden one. I don't know if it's possible that they have two scapegoats at a time, but parents often change the assigned role to children throughout the years. If there are three siblings it is also possible that one was the invisible child, again not getting their needs met. It does not need your brother or you to decide who was the scapegoat, you both had it bad and he does not know what it was like growing up as you and you do not know what it was like growing up as him.

Thanks @Twatalert . Interesting - DS does not consider herself abused and is still golden child. She has a very good relationship with them and so do her children. She thinks it is all in our minds which I guess is interesting as well.

Its only really a joke between myself and my brother. We are just happy we have each other for support. DS has also started pushing more contact with us both, which comes from parents, which has made us think about things and talk about them more. DS had a totally different childhood to us. I’m not sure why.

@Lostdaughter66 Golden children rarely see through the familty system. Unfortunately it meant I have almost no relationship with my brother and did not have since I was about 10. My own theory of why that is is that although golden children are also being denied the opportunity to be their true authentic self, they somehow tend to suffer less from major mental distress, such as depression or panic attacks. In the end, people are unlikely to challenge the status quo unless they suffer to a degree that becomes unbearable to them and they decide something needs to change or life will not be worth living.

I do not believe golden children are truly happy in the way I would describe happiness, but they don't know that. Their denial is huge, and it is certainly a way to survive the enmeschment, but I remain convinced that they'd begin to move out of denial if it was needed in order for them to function or even survive. And so many stay in between and are never truly happy or unhappy.

@lostdaughter66 You are so lucky to have a brother that validates all of your experiences. Boy would that have helped me over the years, in my family GC sister has full reign on them and only serves to reinforce the "we had an amazing, privileged childhood" narrative.

She also suffers from depression, struggles massively with relationships / friendships and values herself entirely on her job / success / material wealth.

I'm ok with her believing she had an amazing childhood. She got a lot of things I didn't get and never had to parent anyone else, so on a surface level that's true for her. Being around her too long can be quite triggering though so it's LC for her and for all of them.

I'd advice you not to confide or seek understanding from GC or parents, you will never get it. Hold your boundaries though and lean on your brother. He'll be a great ally for you.

thanks @wonderingwonderingwondering . I think it has helped us both even though he lives so far away. At least I know I am not going mad - it isn’t me. Which is what keeps being thrown at me.
I am sorry you don’t have the same support. My DS has had no depression or any issues - appears to sail though life unscathed. Me and DB have both had counselling at various times and suffered with depression.
yes you are right about GC. Have recently had more contact and now regretting it! Backing slowly away. It’s taken me a While to realise I will never have their approval , or the relationship I want with them. That includes parents as well. Hugs to you xx

@Happyfarm I am high functioning autistic, it is not an excuse to be an arsehole. I may not always understand nuance or some peoples actions but I sure as shit know if I am being rude. Autism is not a free pass for poor behaviour, quite the opposite we tend to be more determined and direct in our approach. I am choosy who I talk to, I cant be bothered with casual chit chat, I am fiercely loyal to those I like/love.
but unaware that they squashed your emotional self because they see no importance in it?
They are aware but you are not important to them so they dont care. People with high functioning autism are not mentally or intellectually challenged they know exactly what they are doing.

@Lostdaughter66 that's a really tough thing to come to grips with. It took me years to be honest, and once I got healthier in therapy and started processing it all, I realised I was still holding out hope that my parents would just be....decent, supportive and loving parents...and that made interactions with them all the more raw and triggering. In a sense it's a grieving process for what should've been, and in my case, GC's relationship with them and overly rosy view of them only exacerbated that pain.

How does GC's relationship differ with your parents? How has the favouritism been expressed? For my sister, it's complete enmeshment particularly with mother, a huge amount of financial support (up to age of 29, when she qualified from a medical degree they re-mortgaged the house to pay for), and generally a household that fully revolved around her emotions and her needs. Whereas I was always expected to keep the peace, put up with her dysfunction, have no needs, and the ones I did stand up for got me gaslit and scapegoated.

@wonderingwonderingwondering They always get anything they want - money, support , free childcare. Their lives and their kids lives are so intermeshed they can’t function without each other. She doesn’t see that they do any wrong and always says ‘ bless them’.
she wasn’t called names or hit or hurt. She always has the best job, home, marriage according to parents. We are failures. I am made out to be mentally unstable and have been told so. DB has been ostracised at times as well. It’s such a mess I am keeping my kids well away from them all !

Very similar to this for me too. That adrenaline feeling when you know you’re squaring up to walk into a war zone and you know you need to protect yourself. And the exhaustion is very real.

I do. I have been so ill once I had to cancel a holiday. Just visit as briefly as possible. Have an appointment you have to go to, something you must do, car on a meter, whatever. Keep to very bland conversation, give nothing away, leave. Have someone else there as a witness so if they start their stuff, there is someone to see it and validate you.

This is so lovely, thank you. I have been putting my boundaries in place, and now the date for the funeral is sorted and he has been released from the coroner, I am taking the day for myself tomorrow - no plans, and no looking at my phone. Just quiet and peace and taking care of myself. It’s been a long road to hit this point but I am protective over it now. Perhaps it’s something to do with reaching my 40s - they say that when you get around this age you start to shake off caring what others think of you.

I’m glad you have had therapy too, and you recognise your self worth and the importance of taking care of yourself. I think it’s difficult to get to a place where we see ourselves as we truly are because we have always seen ourselves the way our toxic families have projected to us. I’ve made deliberate steps across several years to work towards personal goals that I always held but were frowned upon by my family. I achieved them and didn’t tell them. They’re mine. That sense of achievement had a huge impact and I’m now getting to the point where I can say ‘you know, you are pretty awesome.’ I hope that some others who may read these threads and feel like it’s hopeless can see that it doesn’t have to be. Often the things that are the hardest end up being the worthwhile - and what is more worthwhile than a sense of personal contentment?

I love Frankl btw! I’ve always read a lot of Holocaust literature, partly because I think if the human spirit can survive something like that, it can survive anything.

Thanks again. 🙏

Honestly? You’ve totally got this. Your self-awareness is huge and I think that’s a fundamental part of healing from families like ours. It’s putting the hard work in and digging deep into the crap in order to really, really understand it. The grieving process is applicable - the hurt, the rage, then the acceptance and moving on. The fact you’re able to show compassion for them, and understanding that they too had it bad, shows exactly how far you’ve come. Because ultimately, I don’t think most people intend to be utter shits to their children - they don’t have their own template to follow to be good, so they’re bumbling along in their own way. And the damage can be immense. Being able to see that, to understand their pain, but also to say ‘enough is enough and this stops right here’ is so powerful.

Your workplace scenario unfortunately rang true for me too - until recently. I was utterly blind to the fact I had allowed my reactions to seep into my work environment, and instead of standing up for myself I played out the exact same tropes. And that’s not to say the work environment wasn’t toxic and terrible - it was. But I put up with it long past the point most people who hadn’t experienced my childhood would. Essentially, I had been trained to put up with an ungodly amount of crap. What others saw as chaos I saw as normal.

Thankfully the situation came to a head and I left (under crap circumstances), to a job that was utterly unchallenging but full of lovely, healthy people. It was what I needed at the time. And I’m about to move into a new role elsewhere that I wouldn’t have imagined I could achieve in a million years (and I also won’t be telling my family about). I hope it works out for you too. Identifying it is half the battle.

Sending you hugs xxx

The two years before going NC and as I more and more woke up I'd get an anxious and nervous wreck before any visits to my parents. Id be tense the whole plane journey and it started to piss me off that i would feel like that during taking annual leave. Quite a few times I got sick whilst visiting and had to see a local doctor.

Then COVID came and I still felt obliged to visit once flights resumed, regulations on testing prior to flying etc came into effect and they did not take me into consideration at all. They'd mingle with my brother's family when my SiLs dad would have COVID and they would have been exposed. I asked them can they please not because if I catch it while there I won't be able to fly home, would be hundreds out of pocket and I had a job and a pet to get back to. They did not care. This woke me up even more.

Every time I visited I knew I had to fit into a mould or a war would break out and my body was literally getting sick dealing with it all.

The build up is worse than the actual visit I find.

I get multiple texts/phonecalls daily but I good at dealing with that part.

I don't like the "we've seen no-one all day", "we might be dead tomorrow", "no-one really cares", "we'd be better off dead", "I've stared at 4 walls all day"...

When I've 'completed' a substantial visit, I feel quite joyous for about a day!!!

I often question if I remember things worse than it was? I didn't have a horrendous childhood but it just turned bad especially when my golden child sibling hit about 8 years old as he got 'God status' then for whatever reason.

All my life and in front of people they said they would have preferred another Son over a Daughter!

A couple of years ago my mother was to have hip surgery just a few days after my father's 70th birthday. Then golden child brother caught COVID and they called me saying it's best I don't come and they cancel the birthday party because they did not want to put the upcoming surgery at risk. I was out of pocket. So far so sensible.

Then the birthday came and my brother tested negative. So they all mingled straight away, even though it meant it was quite possible his wife or their child could be positive the next day. I was just so done at that point, especially as I didn't have COVID but they didn't want to risk me coming but then take the same or greater risk with my brother's family. Over and done. I actually wished COVID upon my mother and for her surgery needing to be cancelled but of course everything went according to plan. And if it didn't they would have blamed whoever and whatever but themselves.

For me it was like saying 'this party can happen without you, but it can't happen without your brother'.

A totally different or maybe related matter is that I never count as my own unit in this and the extended family. Someone would celebrate something big and I'd be written on my parents invite as a 30 something woman. My brother obviously getting his own invite.

Once my mother was in charge for booking hotel rooms as we travelled to someone's wedding. Every 'unit' got their own room, but me. I was put up on the sofabed in my brother's suite's living room. Anyone wanting to go to the loo had to go through this room.

At Christmas my aunt would call my brother's family for best wishes etc. Never got such a call myself.

I could go on.

It’s not about me being sick but I have a problem around my mums illness. She was diagnosed when I was young with M.S. She tried to hide it from us all the time, but catastrophised it at times also. She wasn’t open about it or talk with me and i developed massive anxiety around it. I used to sit outside her door crying at night for worry. It’s mostly why I never went to her for advice for fear of giving her worry. Anyway she came
around yesterday and in a conversation she wouldn’t answer the question to how she was feeling to another family member. She said it’s up to her children to read whether she’s looks well or not. It’s triggering my health anxiety now. I said to her that it’s not fair to expect us to mind read and it makes me hypervigilant and anxious. Is this really fair to just make us guess how she feels? I need open conversations, don’t like this and I don’t understand why she can’t just say if she feels well or not.

@Twatalert I had a sort of similar experience a few years ago, not long after my parents got divorced - it was a funeral for a family member. There were loads of people there that I didn't know. They were my mother's extended family. The nature of the marriage had meant that we had been cut off from them, so I knew some of the names but had never met any of them.

It then turned out that my mother had reconnected with them shortly after the divorce and my brother had been introduced to all of them and knew them. There had never been any thought that she should include me in it too. So I'm sat on one side of the room with my husband, with this big group of strangers sat on the opposite, and my brother came in and went and sat with them and they were all chatting and laughing together. It was so, so awkward. One of the women came over and said 'are you crab?' and then I could see the penny drop and she said 'you don't know who we are do you'

To top it off, it became clear later that it had never occurred to my mother to include me when she reconnected with that side of the family. The funeral was 9 years after the divorce. I don't think my brother was a GC necessarily, I just think it indicates where I fit in in my mother's thought processes.

@ThatTidyCrab it's just so hurtful. And it doesn't matter if it's intentional or not. It's still wrong and plain nasty.

I always had a deep sense that my mother doesn't like me. Finally I accept this. For her im just an afterthought, which she's trying to hide from everyone outside the family. I know now that she mostly cared about her own image and there was never room for me unless it made her look good.

@Twatalert the difficult thing with my mother has been that I honestly don't think, a lot of the time, it has been done with malice. My father, 100% spite and bile and hatred. Sometimes she did or said things out of nastiness, so that streak is there, But a lot of the time it was literally that I wasn't important unless she needed emotional support/company/someone to talk at or someone to do jobs she didn't want to do herself. I don't think she can see that I have independent needs at all. And more than that, I'm not sure she's aware that she's doing it.

It is a very hard bridge to cross, accepting that a parent doesn't like you. Sending a lot of love and hugs your way.