October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Just to add it’s not your job to fix the relationship or fix her feelings that’s her job.

Interested in other's view about sending a letter I am tempted to send dm a letter I have written a few but never sent them

Part of me wants to tell her how hurt I am by her behaviour towards me and my dc before she passes but it would obviously be read by dsis as well and twisted that I am the bad person. Doubt i would get a reply or that it would change the situation so not sure there is any point but I don't want to regret not doing it when she's gone

Thanks @ThatTidyCrab @Happyfarm

It's a struggle. For years I had no idea I'm reliving the same situation at work. I just don't know what to do.

The only thing we can I suppose and that’s to leave. Find a place in a job that feels good. I think that is the meaning of life but we didn’t get that memo!

I just don't understand something. I wrote about how my work situation/boss reminds me of my enabling father.

How is this supposed to work in real life? Do I need to leave my job now? Or can therapy get me to a place for it to not bother me as much. The thing is I cant get the same money elsewhere or even close to it.

I have asked myself this time and time again. We are bound to be in situations that remind us of our dysfunctional upbringing. I left my parents but does this mean I need to leave everything else every time this happens?

I just don't understand it.

@Happyfarm I feel hopeless. I don't think an entirely healthy corporate environment exists. You always have bad apples. Or is this me sabotaging myself?

At least I don't have a boss like my mother, that would destroy me. But I can't see how at my level I am not going to have to engage with dysfunctional people.

I'm not going to lie, I love the money and being financially carefree is important to me. I don't want to have to think about replacing the boiler or going on a weekend trip.

@Twatalert I've had a good 6 months of CBT this year, and I have found it helpful in a lot of ways. We've talked a lot about my mother. I was prepared for the therapist to tell me that the big problem is the anxiety I have when I have to interact with my mother, and that getting a handle on that is really what's needed, so that I can then move towards a relationship with my mother where we have more contact than we currently do.

She has helped me with that, but it's really been from the POV that it's not good for me personally to have that stress reaction. But she's also helped me to understand that I put in the boundaries I have for a reason and therefore shouldn't feel guilty about them, and that perhaps they don't need to change. She also got me to look at the elephant in the room, which has been that my mother's behaviour (what she does, not just what she says) indicates that she's not that bothered about me. It's hard to have these things brought into the open and to be made to look at them.

She's also helped me a lot with relaxation techniques to get the physical reactiveness under my control a bit better.

I would recommend but to go into it with an open mind.

Hello @ThatTidyCrab I'm glad it's helped you. I have actually been in therapy for the past year. But my therapist won't 'give me the answer', because I'm supposed to figure it out myself. I just get such a huge blockage inside of me when this happens with people other than my parents and I don't know what's what.

Have you had any incidents of meeting someone like your mother or with traits your mother has and it triggered you and you could not immediately leave?

I noticed, maybe I am wrong, that therapists always dread carefully when I bring up anything related to work. Maybe I should ask her if that is the case. I have been avoiding it for weeks. Sometimes I described the same situations but didn't mention that it was work related because I somehow felt she holds back whenever anything is about work.

You are right, I feel guilty about my boundaries. It's really dragging me down. If I could just set boundaries with pride that I have stood up for myself, but I end up feeling like the problem every time. It's probably my biggest hurdle. So you have managed to shake off the guilt?

@Twatalert no, the guilt is still there. But what it has helped me do is sit with it, knowing that just because I feel it doesn't mean that it's justified or that I have to act on it. It's just guilt and it will pass. She's also helped me see that I haven't set boundaries to be mean to others but from a place of understandable self-protection and that they have often been good choices, which is demonstrated by the fact that I have created a calm and safe home life for my own children. It has ended with me, so to speak, which is the goal I had for my life since the age of about 15.

Work is more tricky, I have a job where I don't have a lot of interaction with other people (one I've ended up in probably partly for that reason). I think this is something you should be able to be open about with your therapist though, you should be able to ask the tough questions and say the shameful things. That's the point of it, really.

Hi Spendysis

re your comment

"Interested in other's view about sending a letter I am tempted to send dm a letter I have written a few but never sent them
Part of me wants to tell her how hurt I am by her behaviour towards me and my dc before she passes but it would obviously be read by dsis as well and twisted that I am the bad person. Doubt i would get a reply or that it would change the situation so not sure there is any point but I don't want to regret not doing it when she's gone".

Keep writing it all down - and shred it immediately afterwards.

Would not bother actually sending her such a letter as this, no matter how carefully worded, would be seen as an attack on her and she would react accordingly. Then she'd get your sister involved in the pile on. Such a disordered of thinking person like your mother (and her carbon copy of a daughter in your sister) will never say upon receipt of same, "well Spendysis was right all along re our treatment of her and we should say sorry".

You have two qualities both she and your sister lack; empathy and insight.

Grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

@Thatsajokeright They never see it coming because they think they are great and they think they have got away with it! They also dont really care, they are used to us giving in and everything stays the same. Until you reach your limit and go NC, then they think it is our fault, especially when you have siblings who just suck it up.
I also went NC with siblings because I just couldnt be bothered with any of it anymore. My life instantly became calmer and more manageable, I didnt want flying monkeys or 2nd hand aggro. Your sister is already a flying monkey 'im worried about her' is typical manipulation to guilt and coerce you.
If your mum was sorry you felt like that she would try and make amends or at least accept responsibility. Instead she has invalidated you with half a page of nothing. She is too immature and shitty to bother trying. Her door is open because she expects you to make the effort!!
I didnt consciously decide go NC it just happened and the longer it went on the less I wanted to allow the drama back in my life. Out of sight has definitely been out of mind for me.

@Spendysis Definitely dont do it, she will not have an epiphany. I remember my friend martyring 20 years of her life & health to her mother. Her mother was awful, even made my mum look like a saint! she just thought caring for her, wiping her bum, clearing up urine soaked sheets every day, shit on the carpet etc would make her mum see how worthy she was. The last week was spent in a nursing home and on her death bed told my friend that she had always been a huge disappointment, it crushed her and she has never gotten over it, 20 years for nothing, less than nothing. People dont change because they get old, frail, lonely, sad etc they usually get worse because they think it is your fault they are not happy.

@ThatTidyCrab oh god, I just realised with your post that I wasn't sitting with the guilt but was fighting it. I can do it so well with other emotions, but forgot it applies to guilt as well. I reason with it and try to present myself with evidence that what I did was right for me.

My therapist has guided me through the past year so well, but she seems a bit out of her depth regarding the guilt. I need to ask her about it.

@Twatalert yes it really helps to know that you don't need to be afraid of guilt, it's just a feeling, just nerve pathways activating in your gut and brain, and you can cope with it.

I think when you have one of these childhoods you're trained to manage emotions in such an unhealthy way that they become quite frightening (in my case we've unpicked that I wasn't allowed to have normal feelings about things, both good and bad). It's hardly surprising that it's difficult.

@ThatTidyCrab thank you. I came her just venting and not expecting anything, but as usual someone turns up with sound advice or manages to remind me of something that I had forgotten.

Okay, I feel the guilt now without judging it.

I just wanted to say a big thank you for this. I read it when you posted it, and it was exactly what I needed at the time. It’s now several days since he passed and we have the autopsy results back. I’ve been back in my own bed a couple of nights and slept really well. I needed it. I’ve been doing a lot of arranging and paperwork but I have also had plenty of silent time to myself. I still haven’t cried, and I’m still being told it’s going to massively hit me. But I don’t think it will. I can think about my father, and the memories I have when I was a really small child, back before things got bad, and I can smile about some of them. I don’t have much other than occasional neutrality for the last twenty years, so I’m not sure what I am expected to grieve there. A relative said ‘for what could have been’, but that’s precisely what I worked through and came to terms with during my years of therapy.

I think what has been eye opening for me is the lack of ability, or resilience, with some of the people around me. My role in this has been leadership. Some of the residual narrative from my mother that sits in my head about my siblings and I, and our pecking order in the family, has been completely demolished during this process. I feel like I am seeing really clearly. And I am proud of how I am handling myself. That’s new.

Thank you. That’s how I have proceeded so far - I have been helping with forms to get assessments and help. But I will be going back to work next week and I will continue to live my life. It really helps to hear that my ‘non-reaction’ is okay. Cognitively, I know it is, but hearing other people’s experiences helps.

This resonates a lot with me. I’ve always been the ‘different one’ in the family. The black sheep. And I spent a long time trying to align myself with what they wanted. I tried to study the things that mattered to them. I wasn’t happy. I don’t give them access to the parts of life that make me happy now. They don’t know about the achievements that matter to me. I refuse to allow them the power to pass judgment. Over the last few days it’s become so clear to me how negative my family is about everything, especially the things that I hold dear. And how hard I have worked to be positive and look forward to the good things in life.

You sound lovely. Don’t let them dull your light.

That's a joke
Sister saying mum is a shell of herself, that's guilt tripping you and overstepping your NC boundaries. Sister wants to maintain both relationships but this means she needs to keep them separate. Not talk to you about mum or to mum about you. I see this particular thing as a sister problem not a mum problem. I'd nicely suggest to sister that perhaps mum should visit the GP then. That's what I'd say to anyone who said someone they cared about was a shell of themselves. If sister is suggesting with her guilt tripping that this issue of mum being a shell is your problem to fix, then sister is a flying monkey. It's not your problem, mum is responsible for dealing with her own mental state.

If mum is incompetent, a competent response to your letter was probably beyond her abilities. If she was capable of understanding all the stuff she did was wrong, she wouldn't have done it in the first place.

Happy farm the stuff about identity resonates. I grew up thinking my family was within the realms of normality. If I say as an adult, my loving and kind parents abused me. Well, that sentence doesn't make any sense, does it. It can't be both things. Abuse isn't kind and it's not the way you treat someone you love. That's at the heart of me standing up for myself, getting some boundaries, feeling I owe FOO nothing and saying take it or leave it, to those who don't like the new me.

Take me or leave me is a position that I’ve almost reached. I can’t waste anymore years on this. I think perhaps it’s the reason my narc MIL won’t even look at me or acknowledge my existence. I am not trying to like her and her me. I don’t like her and she probably can’t stand that I don’t think she’s important enough to like. She is a very clever narc. My ex was stupid but strong physically, he got is way via different behaviours. My MIL is very covert and very very intelligent and cunning. Never met someone like this.

Question for those of you who are LC: do you experience illness before and/or after contact with your relatives? I do and it's like clockwork: up to a week after I've been in contact with them, I become ill (mildly: colds, etc). It used to be way worse: lots of anxiety even a month or two before the contact, and the same after. With therapy the toxicity has become like a concentrate, if that makes sense.
Anyone can relate? If so, do you have any "strategy" to help you with this?

Thanks for the reply.
I reported the man but also added that I’m estranged from my family and that I was worried it was connected as they have stalked me in the past.
The policeman who phoned me back was SO patronising.
I want to move, but unfortunately my family even have degrees of separation connections to my children’s friends. My “family” have managed to seep into every aspect of my life even though we are estranged. My DH darkly jokes that it’s like being related to the mafia. It’s so suffocating. As I’ve said before, NC makes no difference to my family, I still feel like a bird trapped in a small cage.

The biggest joke of all is the policeman that called me back left a voicemail, he didn’t actually speak to me directly (but was incredibly patronising In his tone, I could almost hear his eyes rolling. I never phone the police, and it’s put me off ever phoning them again) and at the end of the message told me he was closing the case!

Not ill as such but feel unwell leading up so bad stomach , adrenaline feeling in chest and then afterwards I am lethargic so I go to the gym every weekday morning, I did not have the energy to go on Monday after seeing them Sunday evening.

I wouldn’t write a letter.
I did that at the point of NC and it was used by my mother against me. It’s not worth it. They just don’t see themselves as wrong, anything you write will be used to show how wrong/ungrateful/unkind you are.
I pointed out to my mother how hurt and sad I felt and wrote examples of her cruel behaviour towards me and she told everyone I was a bully and had sent her a nasty letter. Obviously she didn’t show them the contents of it because it would have exposed her!
You can’t reason with people who are abusive and/or hurtful, there is no point even trying. Sending a letter will hurt you further if you don’t get a response, or the contents gets twisted.