October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@TorroFerney it’s hard to imagine how they think and see the world and people in it. I can’t relate at all. Everyone in my family means something to me. We are mere objects I think who have tasks to perform that are assigned to us without our knowledge or consent. Only we aren’t objects. I mean nothing outside of their needs. It’s hard to not take this literal that I mean nothing.

We don’t get visited unless it coexists with a need for them to go somewhere this way (we 15 mins away). So if they turn up (which is rare) it’s because she needs a haircut this way or needs to collect something this way. They don’t visit just to spend time, just to see the kids and laugh and catch up because that’s what people do who love each other. There has to be a purpose and it be something that is self serving.

@happyfarm
i've also struggled with finding value in the things that bring me joy and keep me healthy when my parents are either indifferent or critical towards those things. I don't think I'd struggle as much if it wasn't for the opposite experience that GC gets, because her interests line up with their beliefs and values. Eg she cares deeply about money, property, will talk relentlessly and crassly about those things all day. She cares about status specifically via career and achievements, my mother bred that in her.

Trying to value or prioritise those things to find any semblance of my own worth in life has damaged my mental health so much. I was the most unhealthy when playing the "good on paper" life, trying to get the big salary that might earn me an ounce of respect from my mother. In the last 6 months I've taken a step back from all that, and developed some hobbies I love and come to see how creative and playful I actually am. I love yoga, pilates, hiking with the dog, personal development. My GC has said things like "don't become one of those embarrassing yoga teachers like you see on Instagram", my mother tells me "not to overdo it", or "it's nice to have hobbies but don't forget about your career" blah blah blah.

I'm realising that the things that I really care about and take pride in are things that my whole family finds embarrassing or "weird". Being "different" is threatening to them. But also - these are things that I think are fcuking cool and brave and that I really admire in others. I've hopped on planes and set up a whole life for myself in other countries. I went to a wellness event this weekend. I know things are good for me when I'm dancing around the kitchen with my dog, and my DH reinforces that. I see different people and different cultures and think, cool, what can I learn from this person? My family sees the same people and feels superior, or judges, or pats themselves on the back if they manage to not be racist or xenophobic towards them.

Like it's just this topsy-turvy world when your uniquess is quashed and "same-ness" is celebrated. But I do think the big healer here is to be things and do those things that bring you joy and not look over your shoulder and wait for the reaction so you can feel small and invisible all over again. You know? Like do them because they are what matter to you, they align with your values, they bring good things and good people into your life. I just kind of get tired of having to feel "defiant" all the time, maybe that was survival as a child, but as an adult now I think that emotional separation is really important. You don't need to defy your parents as an adult. Their beliefs and ideas are old hat, I feel sorry that they can't access joy really.

A few pages back I mentioned that we are have got a man sat outside our house everyday who seems to be watching us. Who doesn’t park anywhere else and just sits there for over half hour. He’s done it for weeks now. I also mentioned the family estrangement and my worry it might be linked.

He was there again today so I reported it as it feels quite intimidating. As suspected a patronising, condescending sounding police officer phoned me back and said he can park where he likes and is entitled to sit outside our house if he likes. No interest at all.

I had an awful realisation today. Growing up my mother was the monster and my father the enabler. I gaslit myself for years as you all know and also did.

Today I witnessed a situation between my boss and a coworker. It was a betrayal like situation for the coworker. The coworker is very good at what they do and behaves in a very mature way, but was so upset all afternoon and struggled I could tell. I felt validated by their upset because my boss pulled similar on me, multiple times to varying degrees of me feeling betrayed. It's all along the lines of him not standing up for his employees and agreeing with everything other teams do or ask. He's the nice guy to the outside and had me fooled.

I realised I gaslit myself, thinking I'm just taking things too hard and need to learn to relax a bit. He's effectively some sort of enabler. I realised I'm not going crazy and he is just a weak dick.

Thank you for your responses 🙏 I really struggle to find the right moment or headspace to keep up with you all. I read you mostly while I breastfeed my sweet little baby and I can't, for whatever reason, craft a post most of the times. It just keeps resonating inside of my head and I keep getting stuck, without being able to express myself.

@mumonthehill thank you, yes: it's so unsettling indeed. Even worse when I start doubting that I was ever anything else besides what they see me as. I also feel pain for that girl I was, before I left my hometown.

@flapjackfairy thank you too: we seem to have such a similar feeling landscape (I remember from the older thread). Yes to that almost need to "start again" as if you were trying, trying and trying constantly, reinventing yourself, "this time I'll get it right" but it just never arrives, the time of acceptance of and satisfaction with who you are. What you say about the physical resemblance has happened to me too and it's so bizarre. In my case, though, I look more like my father, but still. It's the voice, believe it or not, what I cringe with: whenever I get angry with my eldest, the way she used to get angry with me... I shudder. It's like I'm possessed. It's so lovely to hear you have a close and healthy relationship with your adult dc... it gives me hope. I really fear loosing the connection with my daughters when they are adults: I literally have anxiety about this. I'm constantly thinking of all the things I do now that could potentially alienate them. My DH tells me none of it is real, but I fear I will end up like my mother.

@almondmilk123 "they desperately need you to be that person who carries their shit as it eases their pain. But being turned into a puppet for somebody else's feelings in this way makes you feel 'not real'." Thank you SO MUCH for your wise words, seriously 🙏 This is it, yes.

@Happyfarm "Every time I’m with a narc I feel bad because they seem to have this ability to make the not so nice parts of you seem loud and worthless." This was seriously one of the most crazy making experiences I had while growing up.

I haven't been able to remember who responded with the advice about going NC, but thank you too: yes, definitely being in touch with them is poisonous. Unfortunately, I know (and I've talked about it with my counsellor) that NC is not for me, at least right now.

I'm going to post this now and hopefully continue later 🙏💐

Trying to catch up, part II.

So many things you said have resonated deeply: I literally took notes!

@Twatalert you talked in one post about your mother micromanaging you for thing you already did. It made my mind explode reading you because that's something I lived throughout my life with them. It made me feel literally crazy. It got to the point of them lecturing me about things I had taught them! Like things they didn't know before I explained to them, and then they used them to lecture or correct me! Of course they still do it, but I'm more able to laugh about it, although it still pushes my buttons of course.

@Happyfarm I directly credit my therapy with being able to marry my wonderful DH. I always had a kind of aversion to commit myself to men: I avoided having romantic relationships altogether. When I met my now DH I didn't want to marry ever. One of the first things I achieved with therapy was to unblock my fear to move away from my hometown and to marry and start my own family. (I'm talking about me: I know many people don't need to be married to have the sense of having their own family).

And oh, the teenage years... It's gut-wrenching for me to read your experiences about being teenagers and feeling them so deeply. I was the "perfect good girl", just like many of you have described: didn't drink, didn't do drugs, didn't go out with the bad crowd... Yet my mother treated me like I was the most ungrateful and horrible brat under the sun. I was too sensible for my age: everybody could see that. I was so sad and felt so utterly lonely all those years... I longed something that only now I know was a sense of identity. I felt to different. I suffered bullying and DM always made sure I understood it was somehow my fault. It still brings tears to my eyes.

Trying to catch up, part III.

@Happyfarm asked something like " what is something you've discovered about yourself" that you were not able to develop while living with your narc family. I've been thinking about what to respond to this brilliant question and the thing is that I can't because I'm still finding out. Still today I don't know what I am, if it makes sense. And, at the same time, in different times of my life the answer could be:

1. I can be bold. I know what I like/want/believe in, I have strong opinions and a kind of solid, inner strength. I don't get carried by fads. I'm a freethinker. This is not the same as being confrontational, offensive or ungrateful, like my mother would made me believe all those years.
2. I am very empathetic and that is a good thing. I connect with people. I am friendly. Maybe not social, but I am friendly and inviting and warm. This is not the same as being inept with people, or shy or "a magnet for disturbed individuals" (as she so kindly put it), nor is it the same as being dramatic or taking things too seriously, or being too emotional.

But really, I never thought I could be the woman I am today (and, as I said earlier, I sometimes still don't believe it): a mother, a wife, a good friend. I always thought those things were not for me, because I was flawed and lacked something that made me deserving of love and a good life.

Hi, I’ve lurked on this thread for ages but since I’ve finally decided to go low contact with my mother after years of taking her shite I thought I’d write it down to hopefully strengthen my resolve to step back from one of the most toxic relationships I’ve ever had. Her mocking me when I opened up to her about my postnatal mental health issues, at a real low point, was the breaking point.

I look at my daughter and can’t imagine treating her the way my mother treats me. I deserved better as a child and I deserve better as an adult. I haven’t contacted her in a week and there’s radio silence on her end. This time I won’t break and message her, every time I feel that I should I remind myself of her sneering ‘oh for gods sake’ while I cried after sharing how depressed and anxious I’ve been.

Trying to catch up, part IV (and final, I promise).

Something someone of you said made me reflect on some interests I have and take for granted about my personality that clearly are indebted to my childhood experience. Some of this traits I can easily identify: I'm very skeptical and distrust people (on the flip side, I will never be able to join a cult!), I'm 100% conflict avoidant but also just avoidant in general with people. Some other traits, I sense could be related but can't put my finger directly on the causality: my perseverance in always wanting to know and understand the hidden motives behind people's actions, for instance. Or my morbid taste for true crime, how criminal minds work, personality disorders and the likes. My uncanny ability to read people.
And lately I've been able to make sense of another of my "hobbies", shall we say: all things related to personality typing. Anyone else relates to that? I can't tell you through how many rabbit holes I've fallen re. trying to "identify" my personality. I'm embarrassed by some of them, but I want to share it here because I believe it holds value: I've learned about the 4 humors, enneagram, the 4 energy types (some niche Mormon people from America), the Myers-Briggs (still my favorite typing system), but also the seasonal color system and other kinds of fashion-wise classification systems...
It all comes down to having this hole, this identity hole: I am a woman with no reflection in the mirror. I can't see what I like, because I've been robbed of the ability to trust my own judgement. And that's what, in certain moments of my life, I've obsessed about trying to find a clear cut answer. I now know that what I truly needed was for a loving mother to see me and tell me "you're alright and I love you".

Well that's awful vwsc3. Some of the police really are a waste of space. Did you report the man himself for parking there or did you report your parents using what you suspect is a private investigator to stalk you? You could try again with the latter, if you didn't already. I'd be tempted to go knock on his window, ask him who he is and see what response that gets. Just to shake things up a bit. Long term I'd look into moving home and not telling anyone connected to parents, even if that means going NC with some people you like. Probably change my/DC last name too, to throw PIs off the scent. You deserve to live in peace.

@FriendlyReminder I wonder if part of the issue with identity also lies in not wanting to accept (or not being sure if it’s happened) that we are survivors of childhood neglect/abuse. We live our lives around it or defy it but it’s always like a hole we live around. I have felt better accepting it as part of my identity. Part of me is a neglected child and an abused wife but also parts of me are brilliant. I have tried so hard to live in despite of it or to ignore it or push it away but having accepted it quite recently I have been so much kinder to myself. My identity is to be a neglected child living now as an adult and doing my best. I find society doesn’t accept this because it’s complicated and it’s like to all be fit in a box. In a way I am learning to put down my mask
and people who don’t like me can get fcuked (including my family)

@Happyfarm what you say makes a lot of sense. I guess my problem comes from me still questioning my "neglected/abused child" status. Even though I've been working on it for years at counselling... I wish I could just accept it and then keep going. My counsellor always reminds me that my main issue is acceptance, of myself basically.

I feel awful today. I feel like I am just a difficult person at work, moody and a trouble maker. All the things I was told I am growing up. I know I stood up for myself, but I have had to do it so much recently that I feel like a problem.

@Twatalert I had a similar realisation about my mother a long time ago and I am still struggling to wrap my head around it. Not that my father wasn't awful - he was horrendous - but that she seemed like a good parent only because he was the comparator. Once he was out of the picture and I saw how selfish, how self-absorbed, how spitefully mean she could be, it was really difficult. It came as a total shock to her when she would want something and I wouldn't do it. I realised I'd spent my entire childhood being invisible, by making sure that my wants and needs aligned with hers. She'd never noticed that I was doing it. And when I started to say no, actually, I want to do it this way/that doesn't work for me/I prefer this option, she'd be shocked and upset and angry over it, and could often become quite nasty. I quickly stopped telling her things. It was just easier. But now our relationship is very superficial. It's sad but I don't see the alternative.

Nothing wrong with being a moody trouble maker at times, everyone is sometimes, they just lack the self awareness about it. We are far too self aware and it causes us to scrutinise I think normal behaviours of everyone. Go ahead and be moody, once you allow it and not berate yourself it’ll dissipate quicker!

We have to learn to accept ourselves as a whole. Which includes all the good and the bad parts, which everyone in the world has (even the narcs). The “bad” parts are part of our personality and are affected and grown by our experiences. We have been conditioned, we have to remember this and stand firm with our truth as it helps cement who we are. The parts that we don’t like or truths we don’t like are part of us and we can only change what we accept to be real. If that makes sense. I have issues with jealousy as part of my identity but accepting my neglect has helped me understand it and not constantly beat myself up. It’s important to hold firm the knowledge that your experience was real so as to connect everything from there.

I’m sorry I’m blabbering but I’ve also been looking into communication styles and how other people communicate. There is no point communicating to a duck as a cow and expecting it to understand. Narcs have a particular communication method, very immature. We are too mature to talk to our narcs in our language. I think as children we are not aware this is at play. As adults I suppose we can carve some resemblance of a relationship of sorts if we communicate in a way that works. I know I speak to my ex in a very different way. If he starts with his defensive, blaming, aggressive ways then I stop communicating. I have started to tell him that I will only communicate under these terms. Narcs can’t communicate they are too pathetic and paper thin, you can’t get past the little kid.

Poor things they can’t help the fact they are arseholes! I pity them really.

@VWSC3 i would also be tempted to knock of his window ask what he was doing. Did you tell the police you think you are being stalked? I agree they are useless at times and have lost all faith in my local police force after social services reported dsis to them regarding her financial abuse of dm and they visited dm once asked if she was ok and closed the case

I’d be wearing different fancy dress each day and go give him a mug of tea!

Same. I get a visit if admin needs doing , I think when you are in the midst of it you don’t realise (well I didn’t) how transactional it is on their part. I remember one year I didn’t visit her on my birthday (I’ll have been at work all day) so went the day after , she said I didn’t see you yesterday so didn’t get you a birthday card and gave me £20 in a generic card, one you get in a pack. But surely you’d have got the card a few days before? I remember going to work and a woman id known for a couple of months who was admin on a project I was running had got me a better and more thoughtful card than my own mother. Now at the time i didn’t say anything as it didn’t occur to me in the moment it was wrong !

My partner often gets sent unwritten ones. Our daughter’s card when she was born was unwritten. The mum makes a oh how silly of me fuss but it’s bull. I made her write in the card. It’s so obvious it’s some stupid game. Once is a mistake, all the time is a pattern. I often wonder if she realises how absolutely ridiculous she is.

I posted on a previous Stately homes thread when I finally went NC with my mum. She is emotionally immature and was emotionally neglectful when I was a child. Just decades of shitty parenting.

Knowing that she isn't malicious just incompetent I wrote to her. A 7 page letter giving her some reasons why I need space, including a couple of the worst examples. I really opened up in the letter figuring it's all or nothing now.

I got a half page in response to the effect of 'sorry you felt that. I am very sad. If you want to talk my door is always open.'

I've since spoken to my sister (there is no dynamic between us. We both see how shit my mum was but my sister definitely got an easier ride. She wants to maintain both relationships.) who has said my mum is 'a shell of herself' and she's worried about her.

I honestly don't know what to do now. I am of the opinion that the ball is in her court but apparently she thinks it's for me to take the next step.

I'm just so confused. I feel sorry for her; she honestly didn't see it coming.

I guess I just wanted to put this out there with others who get it.

Im not sure whether you had an outcome for the letter. The outcome you seem to have received is your mum feeling sorry for herself because you have told her home truths. You have reached out to your sister when you are the one hurting and your mum wants your inertia when again you are the one hurting. I wouldn’t reach out, I’d let it sit for a while and see what plays out her side.

My mum was very immature and neglectful but not malicious. I went through a very angry phase for years but have now accepted who she is. I can only imagine the fall out if I wrote her a letter, she would disappear in a hole of self victimisation and she’d probably suck us all into this hole. I’d keep my distance from the sucking black hole for a while.

@Thatsajokeright did you tell her in the letter that you wanted NC? Because if you did, she's at least respecting it and I would say it's for you to make the move to re-establish contact, should you want to.