October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Thank you for writing this because it's the single hardest thing for me to process and not blame myself for. Your second paragraph is what I've been trying to articulate for years but could never find the words.

The few times in recent years I've attempted to open up and start a dialogue about how unsupported, alone and ignored I've felt in my family, I've been met with the following:

• You never tell us anything
• You never ask for help. Of COURSE we'd help if you asked
• Your lack of communication has been a problem for a long time now
• Your (GC) sister is just more talkative, she tells us what she needs

And I've been like... I guess that's all true, on the face of it. I don't even call anymore. The last time I relied on them was probably when I was a child, I don't even have any memories of asking them for anything. I just knew not to. I mattered least.

So it lands me back at me being the problem, every time. And I descend into the worst hole of self gaslighting, can I blame them if that's the case, am I expecting them to be mind readers?

This is where my self esteem goes to die, again and again.

@wonderingwonderingwondering @Twatalert you both sound a bit like my sister - I think she's been thru something like this except she denies it.

The lack of insight is the prob. She is Very Happy with all her decisions and her extreme independence works for her. Visibly struggling? F* off how dare you. Her decisions have an impact on other people? She thinks we should
Stop this conversation now.

ITs a bit more complicated than that obviously

@wonderingwonderingwondering how can they say 'your sister is just more chatty' but then it be impossible to talk?

I can guess the answer. Something to do with what is deemed a discuss able
Topic.

Ps I think I went thru it a too but reacted differently - the independence thing is less pronounced instead I want to psychoanalyse everybody which is also a bit extreme

And hugs it sound so f-img hard

The hole @happyfarm talked about

What do you think a golden child feels like? They seem happy and smug, are they just content they have it all I wonder? I know it comes at the cost of their independence and identity but I wonder if they actually care?

This makes me so sad for you and myself. I only just understood this after reading your post. I too was told 'you never tell us anything' and 'you can always come to us if you have problems' (by my father), but as soon as I did they'd tear me down. Nothing I ever observed or said was true. I was called difficult, an attention seeker, one to always want to start an argument (I didn't, I was just totally despterate to be heard and accepted).

I remember one time I was in a very, very bad place as a young teen after an 'argument' with my mother. I went to her again later, very calm and said 'I'd like to talk to you again about earlier' with the full intention to open up about how I truly feel. Well, I never did this again after the way she screamed at me and sent me away. But yeah, I became the teen who withdrew, wanted to be alone, not go out and kept everything to herself. They made me out to be this horrible teenager, which in hindsight I really wasn't. I did not go out, party, drink, drive or take drugs and brought home all As. But occasionally I spoke up and apparently that made me horrible towards them. Sure, I was quite straight talking and to the point, but again, this is all I learnt at home because they were like that too. The number of times I heard 'mind your tone' is disgusting because of the double standards.

This is me and I think it’s the ND part of me, trying to logically work my way through if. But as I’ve learned relationships are far far more complex and I get stuck down a rabbit hole.

Oh my, I wonder that too. My GC brother seems smug, I can't quite figure him out. I think he's in deep denial and disconnected from himself, but he wouldn't know, so does this make it easier for him? I don't think he was ever depressed, definitely no sleeping problems like myself, no eating disorder. So all this and the not knowing seems to me his life has been easier.

Sure, I have the opportunity as the scapegoat to live a life in freedom they can only dream of, but I didn't strive for what I now know is possible. I just wanted to sleep and operate without panic attacks and depression and keep my job. I had no idea life is much more than that, or that anything else would be possible for me.

@almondmilk123 your sister sounds like me 10 years ago. I had a privileged, happy childhood thank you very much. Parents gave me everything. Older sister who got mentally destroyed by our childhood is the unlucky one. She lost the genetic lottery I guess, because our mother would do anything for her kids.

I danced that dance until therapy to get over a breakup became a complete unveiling of my childhood in MY eyes and a realisation that people don't usually come out of happy childhoods with zero self esteem and the kind of mental prison I found myself in as an adult. Certainly three siblings stuck in dysfunction of their own didn't line up with this fairytale childhood I was supposed to have. I feel sorry for your sister. She probably glorifies your parents and her upbringing and thinks there is something fundamentally broken and wrong with her. While harbouring this belief that she only has herself to depend on, because healthy kids don't shut everyone out.

And yeah as you guessed it, GC sibling feeds mum the supply she needs by talking in a totally unfiltered way about her life, her job, her relationship, her daily plans, the money she's making, the people she encounters that they can judge together. That's their favourite hobby. Talking about the past or anything that touches on feelings is a bridge too far though. There's no supply to be taken from that.

Perzival does SIL know you're NC with your mother? Have you told her you don't want to hear about mother? If you haven't then I'd let her know. If you've already told her then she's being a flying monkey telling you about mother calling niece "daughter" so I wouldn't have contact with her either in that case.

I read somewhere Wondering (think it may have been Natalie Lue) about the situation of being a self sufficient child, how adults praise the child who is mature beyond their years, like it's a good thing. Me and my best friend had it too. Both our families would say we had an old head on young shoulders. The article I read said for this level of self sufficiency to happen it means a child has been forced, by circumstances of neglect, to grow up too soon and it's not a good thing but a symptom of trauma.

Friendly Reminder if they destabilise your sense of identity so badly by coming into contact with them, I'd see that as a sign you shouldn't come into contact with them, because it's not healthy for you. You wouldn't keep sticking your hand into fire, knowing it will burn you. This is no different.

@JustLaura I'm thinking ignore, I find with db that if I reply he will start fabricating, and twisting. I cannot get into this emotional fuckery again, which is then fuelled by dm who repeats his thoughts.

I'm ghosting, after the latest "intervention", by db, and dm. Dm thought it was appropriate for dh, I, and the kids to come over thinking we were just seeing her. The kids were really excited, because they don't see her enough, and when we got there dc1 went in first, and shouted "Mummy, there is somebody here!" Db was sitting with a face like thunder in the chair; his partner had conveniently popped out for lunch on his own (meaning the car was gone so we didn't know they were there) and then returned 10 minutes later! Dc1 is ND, and needs to be prewarned of plans in advance, needs to know who will be there as he doesn't do well with surprises. His needs were completely disregarded, and he went into himself. Db thought it was appropriate to corner me in the kitchen with dm while my kids were in the next room.

I have told dm I won't speak to db, as he cannot take any accountability, and we are generally just two different people. Hopefully this has got back to him, if not I won't be responding should he reach out. I feel awful, because this really isn't me but I do not see another way; I wish there was one, I really do.

Yes, it is interesting to see another perspective on 'grey rocking.' Better to inform, but don't justify. I have such a bad habit of justifying, because I have had to do it all of my life; it is like I am trying to convince a judge and jury that I am telling
the truth; it is exhausting. I am in my late 30s ffs. I can have the literal text message, and dm will argue it is wrong, and back db's warped version of tbe truth.

Happyfarm the GC in my family definitely cares about the loss of freedom. A comment was made by GC about it once, years ago, and in practical terms they escaped early in life. The loss of identity I'm not sure GC realises is a thing at all, never mind being a thing they experience. GC is very much a mini-me of the narc but perhaps not quite as bad to their own DC. Interestingly GC appears to have gone LC with parents in recent years, nothing has been said to me about why (we're not close).

@ONanotherplanetinTime

Yes I get that too!

Golden child purposely tries to 'accidentally' show up where I am. Through sheer luck the first 3 times he tried this I was earlier or later than planned. As I pulled out of the road I saw him driving to their bungalow. He tries to bait me into a reaction.

It's warped.

Golden Child and Wife even 'drive by' my house (there would be no reason for this!). My car was in for MOT 2 weeks ago and I saw him drive slowly by my window. Just to report back to my Parents if I'm in or out!!!! Why does it matter?

When I was on holiday, a neighbour said someone was trying to look into a crack between the window blind. The neighbour noted the make and model of the persons car and a description but no reg plate. It must have been him.

The final straw for me was him recording a conversation between us on the phone. Again he was twisting the opening question he asked, to bait a certain response from me.

My Parents also are aware I won't be his puppet.
Yet as he's the golden child it's always how "funny" I am and "you know what Laura is like".

I have honestly tried numerous times to have some form of relationship but it's no good.

We may be born from the same Parents but we are poles apart in personality.

I now retract from anything to do with golden child but he's not content with that obviously.

He thinks he should have 'power over me to control me' - basically to be a caregiver for my Parents.

Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with this?

I just don't know how to handle it?

I've asked my Parents to not discuss anything about him to me and vice versa.
Obviously not happened.

I still can't understand if my Parents are the Narcs or he's a better Narc?

I just about cope giving limited info to my Parents but I just don't understand his obsession with my life!?

@SamAndAnnie

I feel different. My sibling Golden Child thinks he's superior, if I suggest 'left' he'll suggest 'right'.

He does nothing whatsoever for my Parents but is put on a pedestal and excused for everything as he's too busy, going here, doing this or that.

Whereas if I say I can't see them a particular day as I'm busy - they say it's an excuse and what can I possibly be doing?
All of my life and I mean ALL I've had to listen to:
"We worry how she will turn out"
"There's something wrong with her"
"It's a shame she has neither the looks or the personality"
"We don't produce good girls, so thank goodness we only had 1 girl".
They used to speak about me negatively in front of me - even with family friends there.

I have a zillion examples growing up. It's awful that remember so many bad times and only a few good days.

I can't ever remember being hugged or kissed by them.

I don't know a lot about the psychology terminology of all this, sorry if I've used incorrect terms.

Would my golden child sibling think he's got no identity (or am I misunderstanding)?

I've lessened contact by about 50% for a couple of months (I was having to go there every day at one point as they needed things doing or to be taken to them they are elderly and in ill health).

BUT it's getting worse even though I'm doing half the amount.

My Golden Child Sibling seems to have ramped up his attempts to control my life and is bad-mouthing me and trying to set traps for me.

I don't want to go no contact with my Parents. They might only be here for another few years. Who knows!

I AM no contact with my sibling but he is trying to bait me via my Parents.

The 'grey rock' works so far but they now think I've got a boring existence so I have free time!!!

Is there anything else I can try?

I have extremely complicated feelings about my GC sister. She's a mini me of nmum complete with what I strongly suspect is a cluster B personality disorder, she's had too many splitting attacks on me and outbursts of emotional volatility to ignore. She's extremely self entitled, Main Character Syndrome, a terrible monologuer like my mum and obsessed with money and status. Parents remortgaged the house so she could go to medical school and she now sees herself as superior because of her job, and those that aren't drinking her Koolaid are of course bitterly jealous of her. My DH likes to call her my mother's gossip partner, they'll sit and tear people apart together for hours. Can't see their roles in anything, everything is everyone else's fault.

I carry so much anger and resentment for how she's given so much room to operate at such a level of dysfunction and sucks up all the energy in the family, if she is sad we all have to be sad. Mum is obsessed with her, they are enmeshed with no boundaries and my mother loves the constant drama and fires with her, she'll sit with her and tell her how awful her ex is when she's going through a breakup, or how a coworker she's having a problem with is "just jealous" of her. It's hauntingly toxic.

But the same sister has had the capacity for so much generosity towards me, and I've always felt uncomfortable at how she's pedestalled me over the years. I remember meeting her college friends a few years ago and it was clear she'd be raving to them about me, they knew everything about me. I've had occasions of being deeply unsettled by her gushing over me to others, when I feel a heavy sense of discomfort towards her. I think she's disordered in so many ways. And the complete inability for her to see what kind of mother i have had, which is vastly different from the obsessive, infatuated, doting and ever present mother she has, makes it impossible for me to ever feel at ease around her. I have a completely absent, neglectful and failed relationship with the same mother that has raised her up, made her feel entitled to everything and anything and invested in her completely since we were kids.

It’s funny how they love to sit around and judge and talk about others when they bat shit crazy themselves. I have no time to talk about others. I talk to neighbours and I have good relationships with mine but I don’t know what everyone in the area is doing, who sold what house, who died etc. It is of no use to me to have this knowledge but then I suppose knowledge is power. The more people they feel better than the better, that and I suppose people come to them for gossip and they feel important being the holders of information. I just want a family to visit who are interested in what we’ve been up to, share experiences with, no drama, no competition,
no games. I don’t care that Mary’s house was this big and cost this much but then did you know that they did this bad thing…ohhh they such bad people, aren’t we such good people blah blah.

I wonder if some of the golden children are just apples from the same tree and are just the same and get along well so don’t feel anything other than good. Some of the scapegoats are just naturally more open minded and inquisitive and move away from the belief system. In a way that’s how I feel. I feel like I was never a follower and always challenged so naturally drifted from close minded people. My family have never offered me anything that I have ever really wanted in terms of personality and beliefs. It would have been nice to have been supported but how can we sit and converse when they are closed and I am open, what we going to
talk about.

Yeah the irony is never lost on me @happyfarm. i learned a lot about what the busy body judgemental curtain twitching did to me as a child too, it was an insidious "watch your back or we'll gossip about you too" and "the only way to win my interest or approval is to out-perform everyone", that I just have no time for anymore. I walk out of the room when it starts, it's disgusting and nasty.

It's also a bit hilarious to me that such trivial details in the lives of strangers down the road are more worthy of attention to her than entire life updates from her own daughter. The woman couldn't pick my life out of a lineup, she's no clue about the adult me at all.

I think we outgrow our family, they are still stuck in a childlike state. It is a good thing.

I never fit into my family and for years prior to the big bang and going NC I always felt I had just been on another planet after a visit at theirs.

Yes, always been inquisitive. I got interested in psychology as a teenager and despite my many protective mechanisms I had many experiences they will never have. Living in different cultures made a huge difference to me. Just to see how things can also be like. I spent years being amazed at how other families relate to one another and I still couldn't quite see where mine went wrong.

Mine is so emotionally stunted, and I was too, that I learnt stuff from reality TV. I realised that people actually talk about stuff and that bringing something up isn't an argument. That you should be able to discuss things without the other person blowing up. That there are things you don't need to accept.

@wonderingwonderingwondering my dsis is very judgemental and wants everyone to think she's successful the holidays the doing her house up all the time all paid for by dm as she's up to her eyes in debt but she doesn't tell anyone that bit she also has tells people that I am jealous of her

I don't know if there is a psychology term for her I am into psychology dd has a masters in it and we don't know but I do think beneath the front she puts on she is a deeply unhappy insecure person

Has anyone else stepped back and cut contact quite a lot and the family aren’t bothered at all? I honestly thought that they might feel a little sad or ask why or what’s up but they aren’t and it’s been radio silence for months, almost a year with the odd message but nothing much. No monkeys no nothing like I didn’t matter all along.