October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I feel like i've got to be humble before you guys, as my mother was a good person, if weak. I cannot imagine the pain of having a mother like that and I wish I could slap them all.

I want to respond to every post but its moving too fast.

@wonderingwonderingwondering For a long time I gre up believing I was lucky to have a mother that put no emphasis on physical appearance and our eating disorders came out of nowhere. When in fact I see now she just handed all of her own messed up issues to us on a plate

Brilliant. That's the kind of bullshit back to front story I told myself - I have the perfect loving family and I am a fuckup 'out of nowhere'. For so long.

@Happyfarm

Narcissistic people love to take complete ownership, especially of the more finer qualities. Really he doesn’t give a shit that she is struggling with her neurodiversity. Hits hard. I want to slap him.

and It like we have taken their eyes as our own. Devastating.

@FriendlyReminder

I feel down. As if I was wearing dark tinted glasses and all I see is darkness and negativity. My parents, whom I'm LC with, came to visit and then I'm left with a sense of irreality. They have the ability to make me feel that my life is not "real", I don't quite know how to explain it. I hear in my head "who do you think you are" and feel like a fraud. I don't see myself as the woman, wife, mother of two, but as the utterly insecure child. "Who are you trying to fool", the voice asks. And then I genuinely feel that I don't know who am I. That I'm pretending to live this "adult" life just to piss them off, because I'm just a little lost, attention seeker, shy and insecure, moody and ungrateful child. I'm an imposter. My "true" life is back "home", with them, at their service.
How do I snap out of this fog?
I'm terrified my daughters will run away from me in the future...

I am gonna cite two psychological ideas - projection and projective identification. They're basically the same as I understand them. Projection is when you project all your feelings on another person and see them in the other person. What you are feeling - a lost shy inseure attention-seeker and an imposter - is actually what THEY are feeling. Projective identification is I think a step further where you kind of manipulate the other person into acting out your feelings so you can distance yourself from them. they desperately need you to be that person who carries their shit as it eases their pain. But being turned into a puppet for somebody else's feelings in this way makes you feel 'not real'.

that doesn't remove the problem I know. But fuck'em. Seriously fuck'em.

My mother is so wicked I realised many years later she used praise to manipulate me. Growing up there was blatant sexism at home and I had to do girls jobs, which are obviously more regular and more like chores than boys jobs (redecorating, which I wasn't allowed to get involved in. My job was to clean after them. mowing the lawn, which I actually had to do as well as a teen despite very severe hay fever (which parent makes their child do this?), can't think of much else actually). I really resented her for it.

One thing she made me do was wrap presents for others. I hated it because she'd never ask my brother and she'd always come to me with this fake friendliness when she needed me to do it. I pushed back and she kept saying every time 'you are just so good at wrapping presents'. I never got praised for being me.

I can see it now that she used friendliness as a tactic and it's why I don't trust anyone approaching me in a friendly way.

My daughter at the weekend said to me that today is the best day ever. She is only 8 and has struggled with ADHD but she actually said that it’s days like this when the sky is beautiful and you and my sister are having our lunch on the windowsill whilst watching “Insert name” (my partner) sweeping leaves outside that I love the best. I suppose that’s where the thread title comes in about stately homes. Its not about where you go or what you have, its that feeling you have of being safe. Lots of us don’t have that safe place in our being or in our memories or in any cell of our bodies.

I want to slap her. How poisonous. Hugs xxxx

Sorry I have too much time on my hands staying at home with my little one. What is one thing that you are that you have had to keep at bay because it was never wanted?

I’ll start. I’m way WAY more dramatic! All I’ve ever heard was don’t make a fuss, that’s stupid, that’s attention seeking…Nope I’m just very expressive! Life is much more exciting to me then they allowed it to be.

I realised I can be quite vocal in voicing and defending my opinion. This was totally squashed growing up. Obv this trait doesn't go well with a narcissist mother lol.

Now I feel absolutely horrible voicing anything.

@Happyfarm The thing that I am “allowed” to freely do now but drove my mum most mad about me, is to feel emotion for others , you know when you see a really sad news story and you get tears in your eyes out of no where, or someone dies young and your heart breaks for their family etc, or the other end of the scale something great happens for someone and you feel genuinely happy for them, or the in between where you get happy tears about something. It used to bring out so much rage in my mother. I think it was because she felt only bitterness towards others and was very cold and couldn’t relate to me at all.
So my one thing is feeling and expressing emotions.

Thanks for sharing @Happyfarm . This has really helped me to clarify some deep struggle within myself.

I've done a lot of therapy and healing. I've set boundaries, grieved the mother I never had, confronted, gone LC, gotten conscious about what I will and won't accept from people in my life. Dropped the rope and the need to meet arbitrary expectations that have nothing to do with me.

But it can often feel like my mother still remains as that "True North" that I can't escape, despite all of the work, the effort, the conscious changes I've made. I don't even like her as a person, she's narrow-minded, incredibly low empathy and low in emotional intelligence, judgemental, cares more about the image than the reality of things. But I struggle to disconnect from her view and expectations of me at my core. I'm endlessly hurt by her favouritism, her decision to not invest in me, her middle daughter, and a part of me almost wants her to be right that that is MY fault. That I pushed her away. I am impossible, shut down, disconnected, angry, deluded about our relationship. Believing things are my fault has been a strong coping mechanism for a long time. It's made me great in the workplace, it's allowed me to never expect too much of others, there's quite a few benefits to that.

Some part of me really wants to believe the loving family tripe, that it's ME that's got it all wrong. Maybe because that would mean that I am loved by them? I don't have to keep struggling alone, I don't have to play this game of trying trying trying to form a new identity away from them, that never really feels real anyway. My successes are because of them, my failures are because of me and what they knew about me all along.

Yes that’s a good one. They cover it up so well the fact that they don’t care about others. They have very covert ways. Once you know though you can’t unsee it.

@wonderingwonderingwondering I think at the end of the day it just is what it is and we have to do the best with what we have. We are all shaped in some way by events outside of our control. I have a long lost friend paralysed from a terrible accident and she is having to learn to live around her injuries. Neglect causes injures we have to live around and we can only do our best.

I love this question.

I think for me it's my sense of fun, my sense of humour and my ability to live for joy. My parents are deeply miserable, negative, god-fearing people. I remember my mother shaming me for being genuinely happy and excited during my birthday party as a kid, scowling me for doing a little happy dance. Then fast-forward 30 years, she gave a wide berth when I was at my happiest at my wedding. Tearing up the dance floor, swearing joyfully during my wedding speech, diving into the pool the next day. She fcuking hates when one of her daughters experienced unbridled happiness and joy. She robbed that ability from me when I lived with her. I was an anxious, depressed shut down mess just like her. I've seen it return a lot during the last few years of VLC.

Happiness and joy come from a place of innocence and these bastards hate it. I know they probably suffered trauma in their innocence and it’s sad but nasty they want to destroy it in others. I didn’t get is so neither can you!

For me, it's an interest in subjectivity. I think I was born with a psychoanalytic orientation - ie our minds are fascinating, dynamic and by no means unknowable. We can change and heal. My family hates this. Nothing could ever be any different from how it is. No regrets, never change.

Like I said, I think mine is a values estrangement. My mentally ill sister was abusive, my dad was emotionally cold, but I have to be humble with you guys I'm not sure I've had it as bad.

Life is much more exciting to me then they allowed it to be. this is so lovely.
Clear quote

@Happyfarm

It's understandable and I'm sure the majority of us on here feel it to some extent.

I feel like I wear a costume/mask. I'm actually happiest on my own as I can be myself without having to think of anyone else.

I don't think we can snap out of this. It's baby steps to freedom.

I try to let myself think of all the crap for 30 mins a day then I think that's enough for that onwards with my life. It doesn't always work especially when I'm getting phone calls and texts from them.

How long ago did your Dad pass away?

Hi @almondmilk123 . You've been really helpful in your responses around here, and I see a lot of parallels in our stories. Mine comes with the confusion of material wealth - grew up in a big house in an affluent part of town, did ballet and tennis as a kid, went to the right schools, etc. And that was nearly a curse on me in terms of how it led to a lot of self-gaslighting for how I was parented, as I believed the "loving, supportive childhood" narrative up until my mid 30s because of it. I've worked really hard in therapy and outside of it to understand exactly what happened in my family dynamic, what the emotional neglect has cost me, how harmful the favouritism has been, the chronic emotional invalidation that prevented me from ever caring for or believing myself. How some mental health conditions such as ADHD and depression lay undiagnosed as a result of the neglect, and what exactly that did to me and my development into adulthood.

I'd be curious to hear more of your story, as I feel as though there's ambiguity there for you that is preventing you from something you are seeking. What was the most harmful aspect of your upbringing? How does that show up in your life now? Do you find yourself capable of being yourself with your family members now as an adult?

Yes! Oh yes, hard resonance with this. I'm fascinated by the mind, the human brain, how malleable it is, the WHY of things, getting to the root and the heart of issues to be able to empower ourselves to change and grow. I was fascinated by personal development even as a child, constantly thinking up ways of doing things better, my first career was in journalism as I was just so fascinated by what makes others tick, that strife to find out the TRUTH at all costs. I travelled the world in that career, worked in different cultures, encountered so many belief systems, diverse views of the world, my mind expanded rapidly.

I was born into a family that couldn't be less interested in change or growth. I fully realised this when I returned to my home country and started to see them more regularly. My mother hasn't changed her racist, sexist views since the 1980s. She thinks homosexuality is a fad. My father has been having the same hateful rant about the government for the last 30 years. They think there's one way of being successful, and the road less trodden is to be feared, judged and ridiculed. I don't fit with them anymore, I'm not sure I ever did. I've learned to take pride in my inquisitive mind, but there's no place for it in their home. All they want to do is gossip about the neighbours and talk about who's bought which house for what cost. It's so alienating. We're misaligned on everything from politics, feminist ideology, the meaning of money, values, it's so alienating.

I wonder if it’s some kind of “thing” to connect your self worth to how well your children are. I’m not sure of the word for it. I see it all the time. My SIL will promote via social media and in RL how kind and caring and well behaved her two girls are. Family will then comment how they are such a credit to them and how they’ve both turned out so well just like the parents. They will only use these terms. Surely they aren’t like this all the time, kids push boundaries don’t they. I don’t put a lot of emphasis on kind and caring. Obviously we want our kids to be compassionate but I want them to explore who they are. In the beginning I was falling for this trap, wondering why my kids aren’t like them, why don’t the grandparents see my children as a credit also. Now I can see that they only see people as a reflection of the qualities they admire and who bolster their supply for personal validation and who feed them. My kids are a credit to themselves. They are both highly annoying and brilliant lol! Hopefully they will be open minded and confident but also compassionate. It’s a good thing the narcs don’t need us.

Can I talk about the downside of grey rock? I started employing this with my mum a couple of years ago and now I don’t tell her much at all about my life. Over the years I have realised that she doesn’t respect my privacy, she uses the information I share to serve her needs, or she somehow creates extra anxiety around an already difficult situation.
Since I stopped telling her she has largely never asked me anything (she probably never asked me tbh). This means that I think she thinks I have nothing going on in my life and that I have an even greater capacity to meet her needs. Then she gets even more annoyed with me that I haven’t prioritised her. She admitted the other day that she forgets I’m my age and thinks of me as being 15 years younger (I.e. pre marriage kids and major career responsibilities).
I did lose my temper with her recently because I do have a lot on and I told her some of it and she just minimised and dismissed the problems.
I can’t go no contact as she is the only way I can see my dad. He is very unwell and she controls access to him.
I make her sound awful, but I’m struggling to think of anything positive she has done for me in recent years. I’m not even sure if she would consider that to be something she should do now… provide support to her kids.
back to the grey rock. Should I pick safe topics to share and provide context to my life outside of her sphere? Things she doesn’t know enough about to comment or find value in gossiping about?
I feel very deflated

@Happyfarm this is a thing, It happened to me as a kid but through my academic achievements. Your SIL should be mindful of the impact that has on her children. I was held to a much higher bar than anyone else and was a constant disappointment to my mother by never quite living up to her very very high expectations. Looking back, I was objectively a good well behaved child and have achieved a lot. She was very happy use me to show off but at home it was constant criticism.

Hi @Chocolatecoatedkettlebell you know she's supposed to respect boundaries for no apparent reason at all other than that's what any emotionally healthy human would do? You don't have to be otherwise busy or appear busy in order to justify to yourself or her that you aren't supporting her 'as much'. You can just decide to help her with xyz and no more without a 'good enough reason'.

I suspect you telling her that this is all you will do will not go down well, so I'd start there and consider how you want to manage YOUR feelings when she's like that and what consequences this will have for you.

@Twatalert your email is 100% reasonable, so reasonable it makes we want to cry. I have never been allowed boundaries and she never responds well to any hint of criticism.
I probably need to go back to therapy to work on how I want to manage my feelings. Sigh

I agree that grey rock isn't a perfect strategy. You don't need to over-explain yourself though, not to anyone and certainly not to your own mother. Sometimes I think the over-explaining reinforces their idea that they have a right to unfiltered information about us and have a right to unboundaried help at all times. Our duty is to be there at their beck and call, so please explain yourself if that's not the case.

I've used things like "myself and DH have a lot going on at the moment" or "work is busy, I'll have to miss that" and refused to divulge any further with my own mother. She tends not to probe any further, I'm her least favourite child.

One of my struggles with grey rock is that my whole family describes me in terms that are not true of my actual self, and have placed me in this invisible / lost child role as the kid that engages the least. It suits them perfectly to say things like "wondering has always been really independent, we never have to worry about her" and "she's the quiet one" or "she was always an easy child" - none of which are true to anyone who actually knows me. I guess if I was fully emotionally detached and healed from them, I'd not care about that. But there's a part of me that's always heartbroken at such an inaccurate portrayal of who I am, while the GC gets to be her completely unhinged, needy, self centred self around them. I mean I had my father take credit for how "independent" I am during his Father of the Bride speech at my wedding. It's this crazy-making fun-mirror type of distortion, to be my fully expressed, opinionated, articulate, empowered self in my actual life, and then to be this mute version of myself when I'm with them.

@Chocolatecoatedkettlebell There is a saying that “because I don’t want to” is a perfectly valid reason. But it’s not because you don’t want to you are protecting yourself and that’s what we are supposed to do and so are our parents only they never got that memo!

@wonderingwonderingwondering I have issues with marriage. I really want to get married but both sides of my family are dysfunctional and I don’t want them there. If they are there I would not turn up literally. I don’t know what to do about the situation. I’ve always dreamed of marriage but I’m so put off.

@wonderingwonderingwondering You raise an interesting point there and I just begin to understand my own family system in more depth. I'm certainly independent and the fact that I had removed myself from extended family whatsapp group many years ago already always was a talking point amongst them.

It just always works the same. As a child you react to the sick family environment, which meant I dealt with things on my own, stopped asking for anything and kept to myself. I had to do this because nobody was interested, nobody looked after me and I just got shut down at every opportunity. Then I got blamed for doing exactly that, i.e. I got scapegoated again, when the blame entirely lies with them for not providing a safe home.

And then other times my mother would micromanage me for things that didn't need to be managed. I was a teen already and in my country it is a thing to open the bedroom windows in the morning and air the whole room. She made it a point to remind me every morning, even though I told her every morning that I had already done it and liked fresh air myself. Yet she would not stop. She pretty much bullied me because she knew full well that it annoyed me.