October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@wonderingwonderingwondering thats interesting what you said about them operating as one unit, like they part of the same body, that’s how it feels. We are surplus parts really. Also how the sibling copies the upbringing of them in their own kids and family even down to the same pets, it seems to enforce the amazing parenting of their parents and they revel in this superiority. Both my in-laws and other child are extremely superior and judgmental. How I bring up my kids is different and must be seen as so unworthy as it doesn’t mirror them. No bloody way would I copy either of the parenting from my own or my partners.

That sounds like such a painful experience you has as a child. It's so upsetting that it wasn't viewed as a red flag, surely any mother attuned to her own child would see that? You knew not to trust her or to go to her in your most vulnerable state even as a young child. That's devastating.

The self reliance/ hyperindependence trauma response is so tricky, because you get praised for having no needs and not bothering anyone ever, and for me that's led to a lot of self-gaslighting too. I've struggled massively with my mental health my whole life, from eating disorders to depression, a recent ADHD diagnosis, but because I've always managed to survive alone, and had a degree of career success, I didn't get help with those things until well into my 30s.

I also have a whole family of origin that refuses to let me out of that role of "easy child" - as an example, this year alone I've had a wedding, a diagnosis of endometriosis and surgery for it, a leadership job resignation due to work stress taking a toll on my health. And no help or even concern or questions from any of them. I planned my wedding alone, my husband took me to surgery and took care of me afterwards, it was months later that they learned about the job and even at that, my mother couldn't withhold her judgement.

It confirmed for me that the only way to survive these people was to never rely on them ever, and go far far away. The trauma response was correct. But healing requires me to begin to trust other people again.

My daughter has an ADHD diagnosis and she has not been treated badly but she is extremely independent and wants to be self reliant for control and safety but shes
way too young and sees my interference as really triggering. Sometimes I wonder if the ND is a bigger factor in how we feel as adults. I wonder if she will look at me badly for simply trying to parent her when she hates it but I’ve no choice.

Hi everyone, I was kindly pointed towards this direction, off the back of a thread I created in the AIBU section.

This was my post:

I am really sorry, this is a long one, and I realise most won't make their way through it.
Dm and I have never been that close. I always felt she favoured my sibling over me, always loved him better. Growing up I felt like the daughter she didn't want, wasn't enough because I am more like my Dad and not like her, and felt she was cold and unloving.
My Dad died, they were divorced. This has been a struggle because I am left with dm and sibling who are a like, and will constantly criticise me, have little chats behind my back because they're apparently "concerned" about me.
After being estranged for 5 years, my sibling came back into my life, after being angry over something very petty. He never reached out, never met my dcs until recently; they're 5, and 6 (the first one he did a handful of times when she was 1). I sent him through the birth announcement for my second, he never asked how the baby was, to meet him, despite the fact he was in special care, it was was a very traumatic high risk birth, not a message in the whole time to even ask how we were.
Sibling has barged back into my life since df died, 0-100, expecting to see us on very occasion, lots of gifts, acting like nothing happened, wanting disney moments (or so it feels) and like he has the right to be an instant full on uncle. He thought mu youngest was two years younger than he is.
It has made me uncomfortable. I have dropped lots of hints, but he has disrespected my boundaries, and is minimising, and refusing to take any accountability. Now I am coming out of the other side of the grief I have asked him for a conversation to deal with the past, in order to move on. He has dismissed my messages, and feelings and bluntly said it wasn't needed from his end, and that I have upset him!
Dm has said she is in the middle but blatantly on his side. She has validated his, and her feelings, yet completely dismissed mine. Apparently he was "heartbroken" that he couldn't come over one day years ago, the story was petty and twisted with an inaccurate version of events from his end which of course dm believes. I have been told "to just let it go."
What he has done to me, not acknowledging my dcs, no cards, no how are they, no contact at all, nothing for 5 years I am supposed to not speak about and sweep it. Dm said because I have let him back into my life (in a vulnerable moment when I was grieving), I need to leave it in the past.
Since being back in touch I have seen signs from sibling that remind me of why we fell out in the first place. We are different people, with very different lives, he hasn't changed and it is still his way or the highway.
I have told dm I am happier without my sibling, and very low contact is the best we can hope for. She has ranted and raved at me of how upset she is, how do I think it is for her, sibling is upset, they think it is my health why I am being this way. They are making g me out to be unstable, which is a common theme when sibling doesn't get his own. Sibling is very manipulative, and unfortunately dm is easily manipulated by him, and manipulative herself.
Sibling has had staff complain about him at work, reducing one lady to tears, dm has said "he doesn't mean it, it is just the way he is", in response to this, yet she hauls me over the coal for tiny things. Sibling has a nice side, but this other part of him is too much hard work, and not what I want to deal with.
Dm has said she won't accept it, and that she wants me to air it all out, and to patch things up. I have already done this, and sibling doesn't want to know, takes no accountability, puts it back on me, and says things like "you know (insert name) you could have reached out. "I" was very upset.' It comes across so patronising. I have calming explained everything to him and has it dismissed. I even apologised for the petty stuff that didn't happen in the way he made out, and still no accountability for any of his behaviour and absence for the years. I'm expected to sweep it under the rug.
I have been told by dm that I am isolating myself because I don't want to have a close relationship with this one person. I have dh, my kids and friends, but I have been told by her, "When I die you have nobody, is this what you want? What does your dh think of this?" Dm has said she could be dead tomorrow and wants her last couple of years to be happy ones. She is 69.
I feel guilr tripped, and have told dm how I feel in as nice of a way possible, but it is all about him, my feelings arent validated in any shape or form. We go around in circles.
I still want to maintain a surface level form of contact with dm, for the sake of the kids, as they have a good relationship with her. I wish for a low-no contact relationship with my sibling, he doesn't respect boundaries so I think no contact, civilised if bump onto each other is best.

What do I do here?

@Twatalert @SamAndAnnie @wonderingwonderingwondering
Firstly, thank you for your ideas and supportive suggestions, I am trying to take them on board and use them to understand her viewpoint.

@ONanotherplanetinTime so sorry to hear about your Dad.

Oof, so many similarities in my own family. Except in my case the favourite sibling is my younger sister.

I was nodding away there reading your post, so many things resonated. Like the one rule for sibling, another for me; the total emotional invalidation and triangulation, them ganging up and deciding I am the problem (the distant one that lives hours away and barely speaks to them), the blatant denial of favouritism, the "I'm staying out of it" as they sit together and bitch about me for hours, the acceptance of so much dysfunction from sibling; the pressure on me to "Be the bigger person", the "family is everything, all you have is each other" and the "I don't have much time left, let's make the most of our relationships while I'm around". And the total refusal of anyone to take accountability, to self reflect and own up to their own dysfunction, yet I am expected to continually take accountability, admit I am wrong and I am the problem. And that is the only way Order can be maintained.

In the end, the only way for me to live a good life with a solid sense of my own value and goodness is to remain Low to Very Low Contact with both mum and sister, operate on a Zero Tolerance rule to any verbal or emotional abuse or neglect, and completely drop any expectations of a normal healthy sibling or mother relationship. That last one is hard, it involves a lot of trauma therapy, and a lot of grief and rage. I don't know if I'll ever get to the end of that, but I will admit the last few months things have lifted a bit. I took time out from my job, dealt with some health issues, got into a healthy routine with food and exercise, focused on therapy and confronted my mother about things a while ago, which provided a lot of healing for me. Not because she said anything of any substance or compassion; but because I have the support system around me, the healthy relationships and the healing to know that I can drop the rope now. She'll never be the kind of mother I long for, she'll never see things a different way and she's married to her denial of problems and distorted view of reality in a way that doesn't allow for any type of healthy connection to emerge. Her and sister are enmeshed, so to drop the rope on her also buys me getting blocked by sister too.

Your family is abusing you with their behaviour. They are abusive and violating of your personhood, your right to be respected, heard and valued at even a basic level. Favouritism is abuse, emotional invalidation is abuse, rug sweeping and refusing any relationship repair to happen is abuse, expecting you to dance to their tune without any regard for your own feelings and your own psychological safety is abused. Being raised to believe you are "less than" others and your feelings matter least, is abuse. Trust me on this. I have the CPTSD and the emotional issues to attest to it. Accepting the reality of it gave me back a lot of power. It allowed me to make informed choices about relationships that actively cause me harm. I don't need to be OK with that, any more than you would be OK for your kids to accept such treatment.

In your position, I'd be telling sibling a sudden relationship after years of no contact for issues completely hidden from you, is not possible without accountability and repair. That's the bare minimum he owes you. If it's not possible, then neither is contact. End of. And I'd be telling your mother that your decision made for the safety of you and your family, you won't be entertaining any more discussions about your sibling relationship with her. And follow through on those boundaries.

You're an adult now, and you have choice. Your ONLY responsibility is to protect your own mental health, full stop.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read, and comment on my post. I am sorry about what has happened between you, your Mum, and your sister. It is so difficult seeing other Mothers and daughters who have that stereotypical close relationship, when you're left with coldness and emotional abuse, dressed up as caring, and unwarranted concern.
My dm will often come out with "I am a good person" if somebody does not agree with her.

Getting older and having my own dcs has been a huge awakening for me. As I get older, and meet new people, see other dynamics, I see more and more the dysfunction of it all. It is not healthy, other people tell me I am strong, so why do they make me feel weak, and like there is something wrong with me? It completely chips away at you as a person, almost like a character assignation, deflecting, gaslighting, blindsiding, no accountability, and putting every single thing onto you.

I gave db a nother chance when I was very vulnerable, conflicted and grieving, and he has taken advantage for his own selfish needs/unconscious guilt. He hasn't respected my boundaries and has acted like nothing even happened, and that he has a right to see us on his terms, showing up unannounced, ignoring my wishes to take things slow, bringing his new partner to see my ND child for the first time when he hasn't even met him, because "he feels better" with that arrangement.
Recently he said he was going to get the kids something for Christmas, I politely asked him not to, because it was a family tradition and something we just do. He then sent messages saying "oh because they can't have two, and no room for Uncle <insert name> (a title he has not earned), and a sad emoji face. He is 41! Then, he went straight to dm, to complain, and she was "off" with me the next time I saw her. Already I have seen many red flags that he hasn't changed.

I completely resonate with the bitching behind your back. I haven't said anything to dm, because we are adults and shouldn't be drawing he in, all of while db has been having these little meetings/interventions dressed up as "concern", and then dm has parroted his words back to me, and put it on to me.

They cannot be happy in their own lives if they are so obsessed with the lives of others, I am happy in my life, db consistently winges and offends people, yet I am the one at fault. It completely screws with your mind doesn't it? I have needed outside perspectives because they have made me feel like I am going crazy. Dm's response to db reducing one of his colleagues at work to tears, was "oh well that is just the way he is, he doesn't do it on purpose." It is mind boggling.
Dh, and I were so mind blown by their comments we used chat GBT, and even that started getting angry 😂

When my mother came out with "I do not accept this!!" to me telling her I was no longer able to have a relationship with him, when asked to sort it out, it was the last straw. The "you are isolating yourself", "do you want nobody in your life", "what does your dh think of you", are all classics she came out with too. There were also a lot of "I feels", "for me", I'm upset, and do you want to fall out with me, do you want this." I had already said i understand from her POV it will be difficult for her seeing her kids not speak, not one validation of any of my feelings. She has since reached out asking about my health, and that they are "concerned", I am apparently vulnerable and need to "come around." I have no words for this.

Blimey when this thread moves it moves! Going so fast I can't keep up - apologies gto anyone I've missed

@wonderingwonderingwondering

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. I think a lot of people on here had it worse than me - my family was able to fool me that we were a normal loving family for a very long time and I think that attests to the fact that we almost were, in some ways. I had a lovely, if weak mum, yours sounds very different. I'm so sorry.

I'm also sorry to hear you've got CPTSD. i don't fully understand your situation, but it sounds incredibly tough. You are so insightful but I know from experience that is its own burden.

I think my biggest feeling around her is one of discomfort and fear, because she's too fragile to handle any vulnerable conversation and because of that blind spot, she can't see her own current dysfunctional behavior either.

snap.

I wonder if you would agree - the fact that you can't talk about it worse than the actual problems you need to talk about? this thought is going round in my head.

@ONanotherplanetinTime I'm so sorry about your situation. It's all so, so sad. My situ is quite different from yours, but what does resonate is the kind of ideological warfare, the frantic efforts to cast someone else as the dysfunctional one. It's like being framed for a crime. Temptation (for me) is to frame them back and get in a cycle of dehumanisation.

I don't know enough about your situation to fully understand it, but your DB sounds like a nutjob, a fragile manic type. Is your mother secretly aware he's vulnerable and this upsets her so much she has to manically defend against that? it's so painful for parents to admit their children are total f-ups. I have sworn I will admit it to myself with mine, but now I'm there I see how hard it is.

But your mum sounds v problematic too. How can she say 'sort it out' if he won't talk? What is there but talking to sort out relationships? Gestures do not work, not when things are so unsteady and overheated.

I wondered, would you agree - the fact that you can't talk about it worse than the actual problems you need to talk about?

@Happyfarm I'm so sorry to hear about that experience and can totally relate. You are right people don't get it until they've been through it. They think it's being dramatic. Walking around with that kind of injury in your mind - people can't see it so they don't believe it. I don't think my family realises how much they hurt me. That I was walking around like that for almost 2 years. They just think I 'went a bit mad.'

@almondmilk123 oh I’m so guilty for this trying to de-humanise them. What are these narcs though, what do you frame them as? I
suppose just deeply damaged people with whom you stay away from.

@onanotherplanetintime it is a complete fuckery to have your sense of reality and innate ability to believe your own experiences violated again and again by these people. To be the "problem", the "crazy one" who is seeing things that aren't there when all they have ever been is "loving and supportive" LOL

I've had a few occasions of interactions with my mother followed by sessions with my therapist who would angrily refute every single bullshit thing she said to me, while I sat there listening to my mother in a freeze response, wondering if she actually was right about it all. Maybe I was just ungrateful, uncommunicative, selfish, over-reacting, had some "concept that wasn't the reality" (her latest phrase for me)

A few things my therapist said to me that might resonate for you, too.
1 . I have to put on a costume and play a role in this family in order to keep the peace. That role is "parenting or scapegoat". I either get to prioritise my mother or my sister's feelings and experiences above my own, care about their wellbeing and hear all about their lives and let them take up all the space in the room, or I get to express myself and be framed as the problem who has gotten it all wrong. That's it. That's all that is available in the current dynamic.

1. In this dynamic, it's their comfort and happiness at the detriment of my own. There's no room for my happiness and my wellbeing without refusing to play the game.

1. Refusing to play the game (which to me means dropping the rope, boundaries, not sharing personal info, not expecting either family member to suddenly have a personality transplant and actually care about seeing things from my perspective or caring about me) is the only way I can ever have a chance of a workable relationship with them. I'm allowed to refuse to play the role anymore and it does not have to mean estrangement. It can mean no longer playing a passive role in my own abuse, doing my own healing work, focusing on the good people in my life who actually see me and support me, while leaving the door open for these people to have an adult relationship with me down the line. That might never happen. But the existing dynamic is a bridge too far for me now as an adult. I'm allowed to peace out of it and create the necessary distance and boundaries

1. Stop going to the well. My therapist described this recently as my current "trap door" in healing. I've made a lot of my own life changes, I've done a lot of healing, my energy is increasing following a number of months really focused on supporting myself, and my tendency is going to be - trying to share my healing, trying to make these people "see the light".

I've had a few years now of progressing in therapy, only to pay a family visit or entertain a phone call or share a vulnerable thing and be met with dismissal, abuse, hostility or volatility.
Spoiler alert: they don't change. They never will. Change requires self awareness, an ability to see their own role in things and years and years of therapy that they will never do. It's also a dynamic they are perfectly happy with- YOU are the only person really suffering in it, because you see it as it really is, you have got to be the scapegoat because of that. It's their only defence. They won't change. They never, ever ever will offer you the understanding and empathy and care that you seek. With that information, a lot of choices can be made on your part.

Thanks @almondmilk123 . I agree re sister, I find I've lost so much in the culture of silence that exists in my family.

They just do not, and never have, talked about emotional things. I lost my whole world in that silence. There never was a discussion about my sister's illness, especially as it progressively got worse when I was a teenager, at such a vulnerable age. No explanation, no support, no care, no assurance or "here's what your Dad and I are planning to do." No discussion now as adults about what happens when they pass, and they're in their mid 70s now.

That silence became unbearable as my younger sister got more and more entitled and disordered as an adult. No acknowledgment that this is the 4th boyfriend spending Christmas in the family home in as many years. I'd barely know his name and suddenly his sitting around the dinner table and my parents know more about him than they do about me. No discussion about my sister's shit fits at me, the splitting and verbal attacks and silent treatments were met with "I'm not getting involved" from them.

My sister has just followed their lead with the refusal to deal with her own emotions and denial that any of the traumatising stuff that happened actually happened in our family.

It's the most alienating and isolating thing in the world. I see fully how incompatible it is with health and sanity for me to live like this. I've actually made some career moves that support my need for honest, direct communication and facing the truth head on. To have a sibling that refuses point blank to acknowledge these truths, see my point of view, care about my experience or acknowledge any hardship at all in my family (when the dog on the street could point out the obvious ones) - it's like not being known on a fundamental level. Like you can only ever be strangers to each other when that's the dynamic, you know?

Welcome newbies
This thread has moved on quickly so I am trying to catch up but I am glad people have given help and support

I have found this thread very supportive although I do sometimes take a breather from it for my own mental health as things are still quite new and raw for me

The time is here. I was asked the first time this season if I'm 'going home for Christmas'. I just said no and offered no explanation. I hope I can make it through this season ok, better than last year.

@Twatalert obviously our situations are different I won't be invited again for Christmas. last year was the first time not spending it with dm and dsister at dsister house dhs cousin also dsis best friend and her girls had been going as well the last few years since she got divorced

I threw myself into redoing our back room ready for Christmas decorated new carpet lights dining table to keep myself occupied I am sure i will get through this year but it's hard especially as dm is elderly and in poor health it might be her last and we are excluded due to dsis

@Spendysis yes, many will understand even though circumstances are different. I decided to be NC. But I still wish I had a family.

I have a few things in mind to keep me busy, but hard to know what I will feel like. Last year I was looking forward to good food, netflix and time with my cat. But my system had other ideas and I ended up in bed, sobbing, for days on end. It was horrendous.

@Twatalert I am lucky in that a have my little family of dh and 2 young adult dc who support me I feel bad at times they don't have any relationship with dm and dsister as they were very close to them when they were growing up In hindsight maybe to close some of dsis behaviour's definitely overstepped the role of being an aunt and had a lot of influence on dc and on numerous occasions when they were teenagers put me down in front of them but I just brushed it off as her caring and looking out for them or it's just her way

I was asked if I was going to my mums for Christmas and I was glad to say no as I've not spoken to her in months. I'm sure the conversation will come up again before the big day but I am genuinely happy to be spending the day in my own home with my own little family.

@Twatalert Have they accepted your ‘no’ to Christmas?
Christmas always fills me with dread. It used to be my favourite time of year, but now it marks the start of the flying monkeys and one of the narcs kicking off and demanding and manipulating.
We might be NC/LC (NC mine, LC DHs) but it makes no difference in my circumstances, they ignore it and trample over our boundaries. We haven’t physically seen the narcs for years, but the flying monkeys are persistent . And it’s started for us too. It has started with trying to pump us for information about our lives, which obviously is all to pass on to placate the narc dragon and give them some control over us.

How do you all deal with flying monkey messages?
Because I feel tied in knots, anything I say (or don’t say) to very specific closed questions will be taken down and used against me. If I reply the information will be passed around when I don’t want it to be, if I ignore it then it will be used as “see, she’s funny, look what I have to put up with”. Argh! My heads back in a spin. The Narc will be so pleased.

I'm 'grey-rocking' it with mine. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Once general chit-chat has stopped though, my Parents start talking about Golden Child: "So busy", "Has no free time", "takes too much on", "earns a lot because he spends a lot" etc etc.

Worst thing is I find out often through a mutual friend, that what he's saying to them isn't the truth.

This takes the award for November so far though: Golden Child has invited a distant relative to visit my Parents for a day later this month (they are elderly and in ill health).
Golden child won't take them out as it's too much hassle mobility-wise (though I do it!).

Mother has said to me today that Golden Child feels as though "everything is left for him to do and it's just not fair that there's no-one else helping out".

My head was screaming WTF.

I do everything for them.

Golden Child has invited distant relative.
Golden Child chose the visit date.
So it's up to Golden Child to collect them from the train station and take them back.

I get the impression I'm supposed to be a 'maid' for golden child on that day.

How can they say that?

Hi all, I've followed this thread and taken part In it at various stages under various names. I've bn nc for a few years now. I'm looking for insight or thoughts on the following please:-

Dsil shared that dm is now referring to grown up niece(30) as her daughter. This is my brothers daughter who is also nc (my brother and his daughter are nc). She doesn't have contact with her mother but dsil has tried to keep a relationship with her. I don't know how I feel about this. I walked away but I guess I'm still a little hurt by it. I'm not sure why and I'm struggling to unpick it.

Dm used to refer to a younger woman she worked with also as her daughter which used to upset too when we were in contact so this isn't really new.

I'm sorry for just jumping on with this and not being active on the thread, I'm trying to let the situation take up less space in my head and for other things to fill that space but this is setting me back. Just looking for any thoughts to understand it so I can get back to progress.

@Perzival Im not sure I follow. Is the SIL you reference the nieces mother? Does she have no contact with either of her parents?

If you are NC with your mother I would guess you feel hurt because you feel in effect replaced by your niece. Does your niece feel this way towards your mum too? It’s possible they just have a close bond, but it’s equally possible the words are designed to hurt you to make you feel less than your niece in your mums eyes, so that you feel replaceable. Do you have a relationship with your Niece?

Thank you for your reply. Sorry for not being very clear.

Dsil is my brothers second wife and nieces step mum. My brother has no relationship with niece. Dsil has a distanced relationship.

Niece doesn't have a relationship with either of her parents. She doesn't have a relationship with me (I lost a few family relationships when I went nc with dm) but we were once very close.

Niece and dm are close.

Yes I think you're right about being replaced and possibly jealous that they have that and we couldn't but I guess I don't know the dynamics. It was me that went nc so these feelings are kind of my own doing. I thought I'd worked through not having the relationship I wanted. It's like two steps forwards three back sometimes. Dm has always prioritised dn over me, my children and my brothers other daughter.

I wonder if it was said to hurt dsil too as she isn't well liked by dm as "stole my brother" and took dm's place.

Thank you, sorry this has helped I just need help organising my thoughts sometimes.

But maybe being replaced is good but is it because it's not a direct replacement in she isn't treated the way I was? She doesn't get the rubbish side of things.

@VWSC3 How do you mean if I have accepted my 'no' to christmas?

I don't really get flying monkeys, because my parents don't have many family relationships and no friends.

Have they accepted you saying no to Christmas? What I mean by that is, will that be the last you hear from them or are you anticipating any push back? Sorry if it wasn’t clear what I meant.
This time of year we have flying monkeys who do a lot of push-back on behalf of the toxic family members which puts a black cloud over Christmas.