October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

My MIL will go some way to help the golden ones. I suppose they realise they have to put some effort into the objects that bring them what they want. We turned done tonight. I get that feeling that I’m invited but then ignored and she gets some pleasure out of ignoring me. I think that her not looking at me, ignoring, changing what I talk about and dismissing it is her way of trying to show me of how little importance I am. It’s certainly how I feel. She keeps doing this thing where she offers everyone a drink but stops at me. When I question it she says ooops silly me!! I guess that’s why they didn’t come when baby was born, didn’t help or come when we moved, disinterested at birthdays. We don’t supply what she needs so we aren’t important. I think she is angry that someone like me has her son. I won’t be supply for her self important crap.

I've always loved Christmas, even as a kid, I know folks will find that strange. When I think about it, it was the one time in our family when it was OK for us to be nice to each other, swap presents and thank yous, say nice things to each other, maybe even a hug or two. My family is so intensely avoidant and unaffectionate when it comes to emotions and expressing love, that was one of the most damaging things to grew up with as a kid. I never saw my parents kiss, fought with siblings all the time, there was always so much tension in the house. A few hours of not hating each other was always like a dream to me as a kid.

My parents were also not affectionate and my mum was so touchy that it was always tense. It left me with terrible anxiety most of my life until I got to the root a few years ago. Thats now left me with chronic fatigue as a result. I still find acts of affection strange and not a safe thing to do. I’m pretty sure it contributed to my marriage ending because he was affectionate and I didn’t like it. Well his was abusive!

your situation does resonate with mine except the birth order is different.

Three sisters, no obvious GC.

Eldest is the most self-sufficient one, to a pathological degree, which is admired greatly in our family. Middle is the severely mentally ill one. I'm the youngest, mollycoddled in my sisters' opinion, but needier and more sensitive, which is not an admired trait.

I could always see things that nobody else could see in our family. That things were very, very wrong. None of us were developing normally. My middle sister was never going to get better.

Could never talk about it to any of them for different reasons (DM was the exception, she would listen but we never really got anywhere).

Oldest sis is technically on board with my critique and has her own observations to offer, but won't discuss how our relationship has unravelled, and given the shocks and traumas I experience around her that means its LC at best.

Like you I have had good times with this sister. I've been wrestling with exactly the same question. How can I relate to her over, through and around all those lies, all that unwillingness to imagine somebody else's reality, to acknowledge her mistakes, and all the pain that devolves from that?

(Assuming I'm willing to do the same, which I never assume, but my intention is to be willing, even if it hurts. Not that I'll need to as she wont' have the conversations).

I think it demands massive strength. Even greater strength than going NC to be honest. Absolute unshakeable security in yourself. And that's a tall order.

Hi everyone,

I keep coming back to this thread with the same issue. My sister.

Since I have started calling her out on her bullshit, our relationship has completely changed. About a year ago when our father was diagnosed with a stage 4 brain tumour is when things started to get bad between us.

Fast forward to yesterday, she invites me for coffee after us not speaking for a couple of weeks.

She absolutely tore me apart, when I told her the truth about how she makes me feel after she asked why I had gone quiet on her.

Her responses-

• You made dads death all about you
• You tried kicking a dying man out onto the streets (incorrect - he went into respite & I wasn't coping)
• you are the most vile and selfish person I have ever come across.
• you don't put your daughter first
• you talk about things in front of your daughter you shouldnt (baring in mind she said all of this while my child was sat next to me)
• you are selfish for choosing your eating disorder over your child.
• you have no one, no friends, absolutely no one.
• you always play the victim

For the last 2 days I've just hated myself, I can't sleep & am so so depressed.

I call my brother - he said she made him feel exactly the same 2 years ago to the point he would down a bottle of wine on his own, he got really depressed. He then cut her out of his life & he said I need to do the same.

Im fucking furious, she's punishing me because I was honest with her about how her behaviour effects me & the people around her.

Lesson learnt - never call out a narcissist.

Anyone? :(

Wow that's harsh ! This is generally a lovely supportive group so no need for that IMHO.

@KangaRoo00
I totally empathise as I have a v complex relationship with my own sister but in our family no.one is allowed to break ranks to challenge anyone about anything. We all have to.politely ignore anything difficult and I am constantly feeling like a volcano.ready to erupt with frustration. I long for a frank exchange of views though as you say it probably wouldn't end well.
I think your sister talking to you.in front of your child like that is worthy of going no contact from here on in. Honestly these people will never take even a modicum of responsibility for their actions so I agree with your brother. Cut her off and walk away . There isn't really any other sane option.
Please keep posting here for support and hope you bounce back quickly . x

Duplicate post

@KangaRoo00 if it helps you write a letter to your sister get everything down on paper that you want to say and then destroy it - don't send it.

@KangaRoo00 yes a bit mystified by that.

On that note, I have to say I would like a lot more reaction to my outpourings of my pain so am very sympathetic. But we're all in really complex situations and I guess mine's not resonating. I think a lot of people have more outright monsters in their families, mine's too ambiguous, it's a values-estrangement. It's still good to get it down and to know that I don't have to sugarcoat it on this thread or skirt around it.

And reading other people's stories is helpful to know what's even going on.

In my more innocent days i would have said isn't it great that your brother validates you. What a gift to hold on to your reality. But I know now that it doesn't work that way. When you are beginning to let go of the idea that you can have a relationship with that person its just awful. I'm still not at the point where I can let go personally.

It's. helpful to hear from people who've done it - gone NC - and feel better.

I guess you get to the end of the process and. you give up and let go, and then it's better.

Hugs xx

If you point out a narcissist to a narcissist you are going to get some serious projection because how absolutely dare you! It’s worked exactly as they planned as you’ve retreated and been very emotionally wounded! It will happen every single time as they are incapable of self reflection. Now you will think twice about doing it again in their eyes, you’ve been punished! Walk away and don’t bother again as nothing good will come from pointing out anything, they are de-ranged. I’ve only recently learned form repeatedly getting burnt that each and every encounter is a carefully planned event for them to achieve something. Don’t meet them.

Well that explains why I get ignored - i'm a johnny come lately to Stately Homes. I kind of respect that. I am really listening to other people's stories but it takes all of us time to get to know each other - me to know you guys as longterm posters, and you to know me as a newbie. I could make up with myf amily tomorrow and swan off - what do you know? (Unlikely). I think it's fair that i can't expect instant response. Everyone here is up in their emotions, processing huge loss, it is a high-stakes thread.

I'd be interested to know if others feel this is an obvious rule.

I also totally understand how kangaroo lady feels - it's all so fucking painful. This is a thread for getting that pain out.

@SamAndAnnie I guess you are having a rough day and are projecting and lashing out. Just a reminder that nobody here owns this thread nor is there any requirement to have posted before before asking for help or sharing your story.

Id be extremely discouraged if I received such a reply on a difficult day I might have nobody else to turn to other than this thread.

Almondmilk people haven't ignored you and you haven't ignored others. This thread is obviously open to everyone, I didn't join it myself until about 7 pages in. It's worth remembering that everyone is on this thread for the same reason, everyone here is suffering to some or other extent and I expect nobody has a lot to give emotionally because of this. I didn't object in the slightest to kangaroo's first post, Iactually agree with the point she makes, but the follow up passive aggressive "you're all making me so sad" emoji pissed me off.

@almondmilk123 no, people here nip in and out. People change names and return. Whilst this is always a supportive thread it does go in waves depending on what people have going on in their lives. You might get the same posters for a few weeks, and then another bunch turns up and supports each other through something difficult. It is not the same people hogging the thread. I don't believe nobody replies because they don't see someone as part of a group.

Personally, I have little energy right now and am exhausted. So I have been reading but not commenting or sharing. It doesn't have to do if anyone here. I can't keep my mouth shut though if someone gets attacked.

The passive aggressive perception of the emoji is entirely down to you though. Objectively I don't think it was passive aggressive. I just saw someone who wanted to be communicated with, but I had nothing to offer myself.

It's not personal.

Twatalert As someone who tries to help others where I can I really objected to that insinuation (the second post) that we owed her a reply. As you say, nobody owns the thread, including kangaroo. People here have all experienced emotional manipulation. I for one don't need to log on, to what should be a supportive thread, to read posts insinuating that if the poster doesn't get replies quickly they'll be sad. I get that it's not personal to me and I don't take it that way, but it felt like a general jibe at all of us and I called her out on it. We only ever have our own perception of things to go on.

I think she'd need to do it repeatedly before I could draw those conclusions personally. Too little data to be sure.

@SamAndAnnie your reaction is out of proportion and out of place.

You don't have to take a moment to try and see (or ask instead of assume?) where the poster came from, but perhaps take a step back and ignore if something disagrees with you. You didn't call out anyone on anything. You attacked. Your reply is something my mother would have said to me. Id make a totally innocent comment or request and would receive a dressing down and all sorts of accusations on my intentions.

As someone who has been excluded from things all her life I hope kangaroo doesn't feel discouraged to return.

I am the mother of a mid-20s daughter. Am I that mother?

DD is telling me how sad she is and that I made her childhood utterly miserable. I will paraphrase her latest email.
I am angry at you because...
of the way you treated me growing up
you still do it to this day.
You pass judgment on to me when you are in no position to do so.
You will never change.
you are not like other mums; I wish you were normal
I wanted you to give us a normal childhood.
you will never ever understand my feelings
You caused me so much trauma as a child/teenager.

Why do you think I moved so far away as soon as possible?

Seriously, I need support from this thread. How do I sort this out?

I have no specific examples, but I have asked for them.
I have listened and written her emails from my lens of this period and recognise I cannot see her lens unless she tells me.
I am a single parent

I didn't take her to Stately Homes, but I did give her a childhood of stability and love, and helped her pursue her interests ()to the detriment of the other children being able to pursue theirs if they clashed) and supported all her choices, etc. I always had her back. We had a 'bad' period 17-20 of festivals and drugs and her hating me, which I put down to teenage rebellion, but she stayed in education/HE and I kept supporting her. She works full-time now but struggles with friendships; she lives with her partner far far from home. She was face timing until September when she flipped mid-week during our family holiday when asked to pay for a meal (this was the deal made before we left, each adult child pays for the evening meal one night, I pay for 2 nights). She paid for her flight, and I paid for the accommodation, but because her brother is just out of Uni and only working 20 hours a week, I paid for his flight and accommodation. DS had paid for the family meal two nights previously to my request to DDr. Is this an outpouring of anger over her childhood or is she angry that she had to put her hand in her pocket? I know this would not have happened if I had paid for everything all holiday.

PS. I have given her far more money over the years than him because she is a spender, not a saver.

I'm so sad and don't know what to do

@NearlyLostMySight thank your daughter for telling you how she feels and say you accept it. Then call a therapist for yourself to start figuring things out. It could go many ways.

What you don't do is to start to tell your daughter how wrong she is etc.

please don't ever feel ignored. Sometimes the thread moves fast or has lapses when people are not on here as much so sometimes posts get lost as it were. I know it has happened to me and it is easy to take it personally and with all the baggage we already have it can rub on open wounds and make us feel.even worse about ourselves. Non of it is intentional of course and everyone is welcome here to garner support
I personally appreciate everyone who posts and shares and it has saved my sanity on many occasions x

That's your opinion and your perception. It wasn't my intention. As far as I'm concerned I defended the thread and it's posters against her jibe. So we'll have to agree to disagree since we're not on the same page with this. As for "ignore if something disagrees with me" - you didn't ignore my post did you? You perceived me as attacking and spoke out against it. Exactly what I did to her.