October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

She seems absolutely fine maintaining relationships. I think she does an amazing job at hiding her intent. She is the lead of family chats and groups and village committees. She goes around planting flowers etc. She has got everything worked out very well. One child is mum obsessed so calls and chats everyday, he has a massive house etc so she gloats about him and he gloats about her. Family only come and stay at her house, she arranges the dinners and only invites certain family. To particular family she is bloody amazing and chatty but to others like myself she won’t even give me eye contact. She thinks she is amazing and her life is arranged that way to look also. I can’t help but think it’s me because not many see her like I do. She is like a bottomless pit of knowledge. Knows who is doing what in the village, who died, who bought a house who got this job etc.

surely your past is the v reason you can see through her! You have a sixth sense and an ability to.read people and their motives in a way others can't. It is your super power in a way.
Your Mil is typical of abusive people who portray one image to one person and something completely different to another.
Think.of all the high profile cases which have floored people. How Edwards is a classic example. A media darling and national treasure entrusted with the most sensitive and high profile news stories and yet something else entirely under the veneer !
Your MIL doesn't like you because she picks up ( subconsciously probably ) that you are not fooled and she doesn't like you for it.
I know how much it hurts to long to fit in with family. It is a v strong grief not to have that unconditional love and acceptance. There is nothing wrong in wanting and needing that but they cannot give it to.you.and never will. Sad but true.
thank your lucky stars you see it clearly and can protect your own children from being caught up.in the dysfunctional mess. x

@Happyfarm that is one hell of a description of your MIL - Avoided the birth of baby and sits looking superior and weird at important events we throw. She sounds so deeply sinister. I don't have outright raging narcs in my situ - I'm more of a values estrangement ultimately I think - so others are better to comment, but sounds like you need to get informed. And you are not the problem. You may be a problem for her system of thinking but you are not The Problem, if you get me.

Edited to add: I have had experience of people who everyone thinks is great but they don't like me. I hesitate to say this because the word is so scary to me, but it's bullying. She sounds like a bully. People are probably a bit scared of her.

@Solent123 is your aunt just giving you the choice? Has she put any pressure on you? The way you've portrayed her, I get the feeling she would understand and respect your choice. After what you've told us of your mother, staying away sound 110% okay, right and valid. After she's dead, you could begin to tell people the truth.

I sometimes think my past has been useful and then I think perhaps I’m projecting my past onto this relationship. Then I sometimes wish I’d never knew any of this and I could be stupid like everyone else and just get on. I’m getting tired of being “that one”.

@Happyfarm That resonates - being 'the one'. I do think that's an ND thing - if you are the ND with the fine antenna and ability to hypothesise quite accurately and unjudgementally what's going on in other people's minds (not always accurately but that's all part of the skill, knowing you can be wrong). I trained in counselling and it was unbearable because for the first time my way of perceiving the world was validated - it never had been before. I was so angry. It's hard being 'the one'. It would be easier to be insensitive.

I hate it. Being around people, hearing their sad stories, I take it all on board. I’ve never got over my dad’s death 5 years ago. The feeling of the whole thing and how he felt and how scared he was. I feel things too much all the time and never really know what to do with all the feeling. Same with this feeling I feel around them. I know it’s off and I kind of know what’s going on but I don’t know what to do with the feeling. They have asked us over tonight and I really don’t want to go because I hate the way I feel in their presence. But at the same time I don’t want to cause a scene by saying no and I also don’t want my kids alone with them if partner takes them.

"They have asked us over tonight and I really don’t want to go because I hate the way I feel in their presence. But at the same time I don’t want to cause a scene by saying no and I also don’t want my kids alone with them if partner takes them".

Do not go tonight, tell them you have prearranged plans or something. Cause a scene with your partner and say no because playing along with this charade just enables their abuses of you (and in turn your DC) to continue. His own inertia when it comes to his parents hurts him as well as you people and he needs therapy like yesterday frankly. Your children do not have to go with him either if he goes to visit them. Dancing attendance around narcissistic people is not the thing to do here.

You still seen very much traumatised by your dad's death. Have you ever received any form of counselling since then or contacted CRUSE?.

Solent

You are no contact with your abusive mother for very good reason and it needs to stay that way. She may well have an untreated personality disorder (NPD) and various MH issues but its still no reason nor justification for how you have been treated. Abuse also thrives on secrecy, have you spoken to an organisation like NAPAC?.

This friend of hers has her own agenda and does not have your interests at heart either (there is guilt tripping in her message) so her opinion should be ignored. She has been roped in to become a flying monkey. Do not set yourself on fire either to keep other people like this warm.

i know but once you have seen it you can't unsee it as it were.
I personally think it is better to live in the light no matter what the cost. x

The little one has a cold so will probably just say sorry too ill. I don’t like that we hear nothing for ages then a sudden invite and everyone bites their hand off for some long awaited attention. I’d rather bite off my own hand.

Ive not had any had any counselling for my dad’s death. I can’t really face it, the whole thing was awful watching and sitting with him whilst he basically suffocated from lung cancer. It came right before I left my marriage, my ex ignored the who thing, never supported me then afterwards tried to use it. He said he would save me from my grief blah blah and that was enough because my dad was my best friend and no way could he save me the asshole he was.

Thanks for everyone who responded, I haven't contacted the hospital - fairly sure that would get back to her and the phone calls would start, she can't contact me directly but she contacts my ex-partner to pass messages on. If she really is coming to the end of her life then she has made her own choices in not dealing with her MH problems, it was her choice to come off her medications, her GP went above and beyond to try and help her and she choose not to engage even when the GP was on her doorstep - It sounds truly awful of me but I think I would be relieved, I don't think I would have guilt or regrets, other people may be able to forgive their abusers but I don't want to be guilted into that, like I've done something wrong here - I have had counselling. I like the saying about not setting yourself on fire to keep others warm.

@happyfarm there is nothing wrong with you. You are simply a product of your childhood and these childhoods set us up for further abuse down the line. I dated a whole farm of narc type creatures until I quit dating and focused on therapy in my early 30s. It took me years to come to the conclusion about my own family that you've come to. And even with that realisation I still found myself vulnerable to the Ns. I have to consciously talk to myself when I see them, and re-train myself to walk on.

Sorry about your inlaws, how awfully triggering. But you've already noted the dynamic. There's a GC, your partner is not it. Therefore you never stood a chance with them. My DH gets along well with enabling Dad, they golf together etc, nmum has absolutely no relationship with him. She ignores him, will occasionally fawn if she has an audience. Otherwise he simply does not exist to her. She didn't even text him on his 40th birthday, or his brother's anniversary. It wouldn't occur to her, I'm her invisible/ scapegoat, therefore he is less than nothing to her. He's thrilled with the setup, he's seen exactly who she is and what I've had to recover from with her and would happily never speak to her again.

These dynamics are not about you. Keep reminding yourself of that. Expect nothing from a pig but a grunt. Be glad you can see them for who they are and suitably disengage.

@Solent123 IMO this idea that if you rush to the bedside of an abusive parent when they're dying, all rights will be wronged and love will show itself, is Hollywood movie nonsense.

This is the time to think about yourself, what you need and want, and what works for you. Other people might not approve. That's fine. This is about your life not theirs.

FWIW I was long term NC with my father and only found out that he had died a few months afterwards because I used to occasionally search his name online (to see if he was still alive) and one day I got a hit. I ended up getting a copy of his will online because I wanted to be sure it was him. I wasn't looking for money or anything like that, but I found in the will that he'd cut me out. It was actually there in black and white - in the will made 2 weeks before he died, he'd asked for it to be made clear that I was to be given nothing. That was his dying wish. Imagine that, to abuse your children to the point that they are effectively in hiding from you, and still be so filled with hate for them twenty five years later that you do that. It only confirmed that I'd made the right choice all those years before. I have no regrets about not seeing him before he died.

@happyfarm I have found over the years that I attract a certain type of person and I'm really careful now with who I choose to spend time with and how much of myself I share with other people. I've been incredibly lucky to have married someone decent but outside of that it's been difficult. I had major people pleasing training in childhood, I can see that now, and it took me a long time to understand how dangerous that is because it makes you attractive to the sort of person who is comfortable taking advantage of it. I also agree that we are very sensitive to bad behaviour and can see the patterns when other people can't.

You are right totally. I have a part of me that just wants to be part of it. Part of me wants to go when invited but not to the reality, to a version in my head that doesn’t exist. I want to have the nice food and the happy photos but that isn’t what I get and it sucks! Why could I not just be part of a nice finally for once. But I can’t unsee it, it’s a right theatre when you are there. Not long ago she had a dinner party (we weren’t invited) but the other son and family was. She also invited one of the ostracised brothers and his wife. They brought along their grandchildren without asking. She was telling me the story about the dinner and when she got to the point about the other brother bringing the grandchildren uninvited she was livid. I couldn’t see the problem but I suspect she wanted to show off her perfect golden child and his kids and these little kids took attention away.

I can’t help but wonder if I get stuck trying to find ways to make difficult people like me instead of just not bothering. That and his parents are important to my partner and I guess it’s natural to want a relationship. I’ve felt like it’s me that’s just not likable and I’ve got a bit stuck.

I was wondering if anyone with families like ours has managed to maintain any kind of relationship with the GC sibling?

My story is too convoluted to get into in detail, but the summary is a lot of dysfunction, emotionally immature parents, a very disabled older sibling and a very Main Character Syndrome younger one who's been mollycoddled and enabled for decades. I was the middle invisible / forgotten/ sometimes scapegoat that "got out" decades ago. I've basically raised myself.

Trauma therapy has put me through the ringer in recent years, all the repressed grief and rage came up around my wedding, I'm now in a place where I feel a lot stronger and more capable of coexisting with parents with a lot of boundaries, reduced expectations and reduced contact.

GC is as of the last few weeks no longer talking to me though. Blocked on SM, no longer texting, cut off. This follows a conversation with my mother where I spoke honestly of how damaging the family dynamic has been, the favouritism, we got nowhere of course but it helped me to move on emotionally. It clarified my need to no longer expect a thing from her. That's been strangely healing for me.

GC worships my mother and doesn't see the dynamic, i guess she doesnt have to as she's been parented like an only child to her benefit for decades now. She's always longed for a close relationship with me, and there are some good memories - EG she was very supportive during my wedding. But her toxic behavior has massively impacted my trust or even safety around her - EG lashing out, trauma dumping, me me me way of conversing, previous cut offs over trivial stuff, and for the last few years, boyfriend after boyfriend that she immediately introduces to the family only to scapegoat and gossip about them with my mother within weeks. There's been 3 guys in as many years out on the golf course with my Dad, all of whom she broke up with and gossiped with nmum about how "abusive" they were. The last cut off was when I reacted negatively to her getting a dog with one of them 2 months into the relationship, which made me "unsupportive". They of course broke up and sister claimed the dog, refused any visitation, that ex partner was devastated by it.

I know a close relationship is not possible. Nor is an honest conversation about why. But with ageing parents and a disabled sibling, I'd like at least a civil one where we're not completely at odds with one another. Is it possible? Has anyone managed it?

@happyfarm it's tricky when it's a spouses family though. It's natural and normal to want a positive relationship with them, just like we wanted a positive relationship with our own parents. It's not wrong to want that.

There is definitely an issue with self-esteem that comes hand in hand with being a people pleaser, though. My self-esteem is incredibly poor when looking at my situation from the outside it should be the opposite. I struggle to acknowledge things I've done well because all I can ever see is where I failed because something wasn't perfect. But nothing ever is perfect. The childhood messages of not good enough/boring/too big/not clever enough/unlikeable/unattractive are so deeply engrained and hard to shake off. Therapy has helped me with this to some extent. I wonder if the desire to have difficult people like you could be partly due to this?

Does anyone else get super wound up when they get messages from a parent they are LC with? Had a couple of weeks of peace as they've been away/busy but the messages started again yesterday and it makes me feel like bursting into tears. They're not mean or anything, just pointless crap that I'm not interested in and don't want. I know it's attention seeking and I'm ignoring it because I know if I engage, it inevitably gets me drawn into a place where the requests/unpleasant stuff starts.

I just don't get why, when you've barely spoken to someone for fifteen years, you would think they'd want constant messages/communication from you. Ignoring doesn't work and I don't understand that either. How can you treat someone badly and then bounce along like the relationship is all fine and dandy when it suits?

@wonderingwonderingwondering I really am starting to believe that you can’t have a relationship with these types of people. Well not a nice healthy one. In my own circumstances the people that the narc has around them are all kind of broken people one way or another or naive people. Being neither of those anymore I serve no purpose. You have to be able to pull the scales back over your eyes to have a relationship where they use you. It impossible to pull the scales back over so the type or relationship will be very unhealthy and feel so bloody wrong.

@QuickPeachExpert I’ve noticed they all like this tactic. Be an absolute horror, let some time move on and then pretend it didn’t happen and act all normal. I won’t have it. I’ve literally said “time passing doesn’t erase you being a _ “ as a reply once.

I have found solace in creating that family dynamic with my own children. I am now the matriarch( I am getting old in other words ! ) of a largish family of children and grandchildren and I try to give them the love and support I needed myself. There is healing in that to some extent though I still hurt at times.
It is sad when you feel so isolated I know but they will never meet your needs so.you have to.try to let it go.and build the family you want yourself.

I’m 40 myself now and I am definitely providing that family in my own family. I am completely different to my own family and my in-laws, loud, hug squeeze and tell them I love them 100 times a day, even if they run away I pin them down on the floor lol. I teach them to love themselves before they love anyone else. We don’t fit at all. When we visit the other grandkids sit quietly waiting to be talked to whereas my kids are busy singing and dancing and being loud and confident. They always tell them to stop making a fuss but it’s how we are. I teach my kids to make a fuss when they aren’t happy or hurt. The worst thing I’ve ever learned is to sit and never make a fuss. I couldn’t care less if they don’t look or behave perfect all the time. They aren’t a reflection of me they are their own people. I never really know if I’m doing the right thing but I guess time will tell.

Do narcissistic people behave in this weird way where they literally can’t stop helping people. It won’t be the people who need the help but people they choose to help. Often strangers. These people have this reputation for being helpers, hero’s, really REALLY good people in the community and family. They also only hang with other helpers and hero’s. I’m not this kind of person. I help but I don’t make it known or talk about it. I just believe I’m a good person and treat people decent as I go along my life. I spend most of my helping energy on my own little family, my kids especially not so much externally. It’s like you can’t get past the reputation.

@Happyfarm What you wrote about narcs being ‘helpers’ reminds me of one of the narcs in my extended family. She says, and I quote ‘I would carry everyone on my WINGS if I could’ What it translates to is she would carry everybody high up into the air so she could “accidently” drop them from a great height and enjoy watching them fall. She also prevents other people from helping people who actually need help, because she likes to be seen to be the kind one helping.
In my mind its like she sees someone dangling off a cliff, says to other observers “don’t worry, you stay there, I will sacrifice myself to save them because I’m kind like that”, but what she actually does when she gets there is jumps up and down on their fingers until they fall off.
IME a narcs help isn’t help, they tell people they are helping for the flattery and attention and the front row seat for the drama, but what they are actually doing is sabotaging the person and making the persons problems worse.
Then there’s the wider world. With strangers and their followers they do shallow acts of kindness which fools people into thinking they are kind, so that people don’t believe they are the type who would let someone fall off a cliff.