October 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"
I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:
"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".
Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

defintely sounds like neurodiversity is a factor here.

The fact that you are looking at what you may have contributed to the situation rather than just roasting the world also suggests general sensitivity and self-awareness. And in my humble experience is linked to a certain type of analytical fair-minded neurodiversity.

Neurodiversity can produce narcissists, borderlines and psychopaths (and hence very problematic families and f-d up kids). it can also produce the most brilliant, fairminded, skilled, empathic minds. It's a wierd one.

If you are a factor it won't be in the sense that you're a bad person. Hugs I feel your pain, I am identifying as ND and feel very alone a lot of the time.

xxx

Thank you. I just don’t seem to understand relationships and all the complexity of them. I approach people and think we will all just get along because we are good people. There is so much going on underneath that’s so complicated. People are mean and hard I’m a very sensitive and honest person. I feel rejection very deeply and I take it very personally. My in-laws I just don’t understand why they behave the way they do. I end up pulling away and isolating myself because it hurts my brain trying to figure out how I need to change or behave to fit.

@Skinnymalinksmalogenlegs

I can understand that. But there might be a few things to consider:

1. Why do you want to hear what she has to say?
2. what do you miss, exactly?
3. why do you think she'll listen now when past behaviour has repeatedly indicated that's not going to happen? What has changed?

I guess I want her to say she's thought about the things I said to her and I want her to apologise. I don't think that's going to happen.

I miss talking to her.

What's changed is that this is the longest I have gone without speaking to her and without backing down or being the one to make the first move.

I want to feel like I matter to her, and that she wants to make the effort to have a relationship with me.

So I have been LC with my mum for years now due to her batshit narc behaviours. A plus side of this is when she drops the mask I notice instantly. And an unexpected bonus is I FEEL it instantly. I feel the pain and inner child wound and that gives me the opportunity to love on myself and heal something specific based on the specific feeling or flashback that gets triggered. I want to emphasise I don't go looking for this, I'm disengaged and getting on with my own life. The rope has been dropped. I just wanted to vent here and maybe it will help someone to read it.

She was pressing me for info if I was thinking of moving to a different area/town. I usually grey rock but I was feeling happy that day and decided to give her the benefit of the doubt - which you will know, NEVER ends well. Out of nowhere she said "Well you know you'll never fit in anywhere." I said "excuse me? That's a hurtful thing to say. Why would you say that?" "Oh you know what I mean" she snapped. "Not really. That was really hurtful. Can you not say that to me again please." "Oh well you know I didn't mean it. Stop being so sensitive. "

!!!!!!!!!

I ended the conversation, absolute nonsense.

I felt the gut punch and part of me just wanted to cry. I thought to myself why? Why as a mother would you say that to your daughter? It makes no sense whatsoever. What did she think she was getting out of it? What did she want or expect to happen when she said it?

It's been liberating to see that she's been saying these nasty things to me all my life and I'm not to blame. She pulls this shit out of thin air and then runs the narcissists prayer on me when I challenge her. I didn't break her, I am not responsible to fix her, I am allowed to drop the rope and live my own life however I want.

Seriously, fuck her.

I hope this gives someone strength to go LC or NC today.

It feels like so many parents have this very rigid thinking that if they go against they will explode and die. They don’t seem to care about what happens to the other person when they don’t think the same. I have always tried to bring my kids up and parent them for who they are not what I think they need and I easily apologise if I get something wrong for them. Why is it to hard to apologise, what do they think will happen to them if they do?

Well done you. My mother is just like this.

@Happyfarm it's because we don't have firm boundaries and people know this because the first time they cross us we don't shout fuck off to them. Poor behavior creeps up they more they get away with treating us badly they lose respect for us.
I am really rigid in boundaries since my 30's and people didn't take advantage of me because I closed them down instantly. I just couldn't do it with parents because I was trying to have a relationship with them. You have to be ready to walk away from those who don't treat you with respect.
Next time just walk out, say nothing.

Is this all people or just horrible toxic people?

@Happyfarm I think most people will take advantage of your good, people pleasing nature if you let them. Some seek out people they can manipulate.
One of my bug bears are people asking to borrow my belongings [that I have worked and saved hard for] I say no immediately and firmly, they don't ask again. The rare time Iv been caught off guard Iv had to chase for item back and they behave like I am being mean. They will then ask again and again, I get really angry and end up blocking them. Had I said no and stuck to my guns would probably still be friends.
We teach people how to treat us.
I don't want to be friends with people who I am useful to, I had that my whole life with family but I allowed them to behave that way because I didn't say NO.
I have friends who are always used by others because they try to hard, do too much and when it isn't reciprocated they feel hurt. People who know me often say they love me because they always know where they stand with me, I don't play games.
It's actually very simple stop LETTING people treat you badly. Walk away and gain their respect.
Family and friends do not get a free pass and we are not obligated to put up with stuff that upsets us. We choose who we accept into our lives.

I have walked away from my partners parents emotionally now having accepted that yet another set of parents don’t like me (great). They have definitely not respected me for this, I’m even more ostracised. When my partner approached them they basically said I have pushed myself out when this is not the case and they don’t care. I thought people wanted to make family (especially new members) feel welcome. I would hate to think I had upset and pushed someone out. There’s me thinking I’ll show them with my presence that I don’t appreciate the comments and they are actually glad I’ve backed off.

They are not going to admit they are at fault and no they don't care. You now don't have to put up with them, you don't need their respect, that's a win.

I thought that we were after a relationship as that’s what family do. I don’t think they are, I get confused what they want or what to give them. I have a good relationship with his grandparents and other members of the family but his mum especially there is nothing. My partner loves them and thinks the world of his parents, it’s very difficult especially as his mum won’t even look at me. The dad is better but he will mostly talk about the other brother and how amazing he is. I obviously want to talk about us and what we and the kids are doing but they aren’t interested and my partner can’t see it and it’s becoming a problem. I can’t do a relationship like this.

Happyfarm because your boundaries are low to non-existent after being raised by a narcissist, it means other narcissists and dysfunctional people can enter your world because you don't recognize their evil quickly enough (because it's your "normal" due to your upbringing). So we end up in a bunch of other toxic relationships with friends, partners, in-laws etc before we start questioning it all and getting some boundaries. Now with better boundaries and hindsight, I look at your situation and see a DH problem. Yes ok MIL is a shit, but unless DH is backing you up each and every time by calling her out on it, standing up for you and not allowing you to be disrespected by PIL (to the point where you both leave if they do it and stop visiting if they repeatedly do it despite it being made clear it's unacceptable last time), then he's an enabler of their abuse. It's not ok for him to stand by and let it happen. This isn't ultimately a problem for you to sort out regarding how MIL treats you, DH should be putting a stop to it. You can't even fix it by getting boundaries because the more boundaries you have and uphold, the more a narcissist dislikes you.

Nobody should be taking DC to see 'D'GP who do this either. They shouldn't experience the toxic behaviour that will inevitably be directed at the at some point (because the narcissist is toxic towards everyone eventually), even if they're the favoured one it's still toxic and psychologically damaging to the DC. They shouldn't be witnessing their parents treated in this way either. All any of it teaches DC is that toxic relationships are normal and to be tolerated because it's family. That's not a lesson you want DC to learn.

As an immediate thing you can do, I'd refuse to be around MIL ever again. We all dislike people sometimes, those who aren't narcissist have the good manners to hide it and be polite and friendly regardless. This isn't a
they don't like me problem, it's a they can't behave like respectful, civilised human beings problem. If DH makes one peep about this, the correct response would be to rip him a new one and if that doesn't work, to divorce him. Because he shouldn't have any kind of a problem with you being unwilling to tolerate emotional abuse, general toxicity and nastiness from his family.

They don't apologize because they don't believe they're wrong. They don't say these things then regret it because they "didn't mean it". They did mean it and they think they're justified in saying it, they genuinely think it's ok to do this and that they have nothing to apologize for. They think you're the problem for not tolerating it. It's why you can't win.

Horrible toxic people are the only ones who will try to treat you this way and they're the only ones you'll have to walk away from like this.

Decent people you're either friends or you're not friends, there's no toxicity either way. Even if you disagree with their beliefs or something they've done and decide to not associate yourself with them, even if there's some kind of falling out and you argue because neither of you thinks you're wrong, you're both still able to coexist in the same space, to be civil and respectful if you happen across each other again

Yes that’s what my mother is like. She’ll watch me run out of the room crying and just act like it’s never happened or actively gloat. She NEVER apologises.

I think I am the problem because I’m looking for something different out of the relationship. I’m looking for people who support us and care for us and are wanting us to succeed and be happy and who are interested. I suspect my MIL in particular is looking for something different. I’ve been wondering if she is ND herself. She is extremely rigid in her behaviour and seems to use relationships as a means to achieve something. I don’t have anything to offer her. I don’t people please anymore, I don’t adore people. I just want people in my life who want to be part.

You are not the problem Happyfarm. You've basically received the Special Training to put your toxic mother's and toxic inlaws needs first with your own dead last. Its not your fault your mother and inlaws are the ways they are, you did not make them that way. Their own families did that to them. She will never give you what you want; she is not built that way and is not equipped.

Your partner is a problem because of his inertia when it comes to his parents; inertia that also hurts him as well as you. He has been led to believe by them that the sky will fall in on him if he upsets them in any way. He is far more afraid of them than he ever is or would be of you and so appears not to notice their barbs against you. He still seeks their approval even now, approval they will never give him.

I would urge you to not ever visit his parents again; it does your children no favours to see you people as their parents being disrespected and otherwise put down every single time. If he wants to see his parents he can go on his own, you people do not visit them. If you want to see the wider family then arrange to meet up with them away from the inlaws.

Your MIL wants you to kow tow to her at all times and otherwise dance attendance. She has a willing enabler in the shape of her H. She has no interest in you and or your children other than the narcissistic supply they can provide her and her enabler H with. Such women cannot do relationships at all.

Not all relatives are nice and kind and some of them remain actively abusive. I would put a crisp five pound note on her not being at all ND either. Why would you think she is neurodiverse given what you have written about her as well?. Even if she was which she is not, there is no justification or excuse for how you and in turn your children have been and remain treated by her. She is a narcissist and abusive with it. Stay away from these serial abusers. Your children will thank you also for doing that.

The "normal" rules of familial engagement go completely out the window when it comes to dysfunctional families. They abide by their own rules and narrative.

@AttilaTheMeerkatmy mum wasn’t great at all when I was a child, she was also chronically unwell (life long, M.S) and it caused her depression and she was very controlling. She has mellowed with age and she has been really physically helpful to me. She isn’t narcissistic and very different to my MIL. My mum isn’t superior. My MIL I can’t read whatsoever, I’ve no idea how to behave around her and I hate being in her and the FILs presence. My partner doesn’t seem scared of them at all outwardly. He really behaves completely oblivious and when I’ve told him how I feel he can’t see it at all, he thinks they are amazing. Everyone in the community does. (Apart from people who are beneath her, she avoids them like they don’t exist, including family members). She has ignored her own dad and stepmom for 40 years after he married. I dont think she is as special as everyone seems to think. To be special you have to earn it, by supporting and being present in our lives, which she has never been. Avoided the birth of baby and sits looking superior and weird at important events we throw. I don’t know I find the whole thing so confusing half the time as to others she is someone and then to others she’s something different.

I'm not sure if I've ever posted on here before, but I'm NC with my mother (late 70's) who was physically/emotionally abusive to me as a child, she has MH problems - severe ones (bi-polar, psychosis at one point, narcissism, hoarding, agoraphobia and has spent periods of time in hospital for MH). Anyway I had a message from one of her friends (who has been nothing but lovely to me over the years) yesterday to say that she was in hospital and has stopped eating, from what I can gather there's no serious physical illness other than self neglect, the message said that her health is declining and it would be a good time to get in touch with her / visit her and I might not get this time back etc, hinting that she might die. I've heard nothing from the hospital / her GP which is surprising because usually I'm the first person they contact, but I don't doubt that her friend believes there's a good chance she will continue to go downhill and may die. I suppose I'm a bit blindsided really. No-one else knows about the abuse because she was a single parent and my father lived abroad. I'm an only child and she was an only child - so no family members around. I'm scared to see her now, I'm also angry to some extent. General convention seems to say that I'll regret it if I don't get in touch, I don't think I will - maybe its very harsh of me, but when I finally went NC I stopped having nightmares and now I'm not sure I want to get sucked back into it all.

Appreciate others thoughts on this.

@Solent123 I am sorry you are in this difficult situation if you are next of kin and the hospital usually contacts you it's odd they haven't this time saying that dmil who was in a care home got admitted to hospital and neither of them contacted us it was only when we rang after a few days they sheepishly said had nobody informed you she was in hospital
Could you maybe ring the hospital to check

I think you have to do what is best for you and if that means not visiting her then you shouldn't feel obliged or guilty about it. If you feel like you need to visit as it will give you closure you would regret not seeing her or to get things off your chest then that's ok it's what ever is best for you and your mental wellbeing

Sorry I am not much help but I didn't want your post to be unanswered I am sure someone else will be along who has either experienced this or knows what they plan to do in this situation i am struggling to come to terms with how dm has recently treated me along with dsis so we are now nc and one of my major anxieties is not being told dm is dying so I can either say goodbye or tell her how hurt and disappointed I am in her recent behaviour to me or even being told she has passed away

I think I am the problem because I’m looking for something different out of the relationship. I’m looking for people who support us and care for us and are wanting us to succeed and be happy and who are interested

I agree with atilla. That doesn't make you a problem. There's nothing wrong with what you want. But it's going to be a problem for you if you look for that with someone who is a mismatch. The mismatch being you're decent and want to treat people decently, wanting nothing from them except the pleasure of their company and mutual respect. Whereas someone like MIL is transactional in relationships and an arse in personality, if she can't use someone she has no interest in them and CBA to even be civil to them. She's the one going to struggle to form and maintain relationships throughout her life, because she's a problem, the way she thinks and behaves is a problem because most people won't agree with her or like her. You'll be just fine once you're not surrounded by nastiness from people like her.

Solent I'd steer clear. I'm cynical but although the friend could be acting with the best of intentions, that doesn't mean the friend hasn't unintentionally been manipulated into being a flying monkey. From other posts on this thread I wouldn't underestimate how determined the narc can be in trying to upset people or get their own way. Nothing physically wrong but stopped eating smacks of this. I'm not saying she'll recover but I think some of them might be happy to hasten their own demise out of spite. If you search out monkey from Manchester posts you'll see her MIL did this.

Dunno if this helps at all - What did you envision happening when you went NC? Did you imagine being told she was dying some day and going to visit, at the point you went NC? If you didn't, perhaps you've already made peace with her being gone forever a long time ago, even though she was still alive?