Husband's pornography use

[Circeandthepigs]

I have strong objections regarding pornography ( abuse, harm, exploitation of women and girls) and when 5 years ago I discovered my husband used porn secretly I was completely devastated & gave him an ultimatum- he stop or I divorce him. He said he hardly used it and that it was no problem stopping. I told him my feelings about porn & was upfront that i couldn't live with a man who used it.
Ive checked in about it over the years but he's always assured me he doesn't use it anymore and he is very plausible.
Recently we went on an extended holiday together. He took his tablet for 'Google Maps' etc. Most days he opted to stay behind at our rental for a few hours by himself to 'read and chill in the garden'.
At first I didn't mind as I enjoyed time to myself on the beach etc and he'd join me later. However, I started to get a feeling, an instinct, call it intuition. I started to question what he was doing and asked if he was using the tablet for porn while I was out of the way. He was indignant and swore he never used it, in fact he hadn't even opened the tablet on the holiday.
I left it to the last day to confront him properly as I didn't want a big scene while we were away together with no way of escape!
I made him put on the tablet. I found that he had been using pornography while i was by myself on the beach. He was extremely upset and bashful but still lying. At first he said it was briefly once during the holiday, then twice ( although data evidence indicated otherwise) and that he'd not used porn since our conversation/ my ultimatum 5 years ago. Over the last few days, with my continued questioning, he's admitted he started using pornography again years ago.
He says it is a compulsion for the illicit.
I think it's the tip of the iceberg and my trust is now detonated.
I can't bear the thought that he was doing this on our holiday and gaslighting me. I can feel only contempt for him.
He says that he loves me and it would be foolish of me to leave a man who adores me.
Well I don't feel adored.
We all have free will..he can do as he chooses, but i have the right to not live with a man who chooses to use pornography. We also hardly ever have sex, although I'm attractive and keep in really good shape etc. He has never really wanted to address the lack of sex between us, it has always been me getting upset and bringing up the subject.
I feel done and finished. Unfortunately I can't move out for 12 months because my son has a year left at university and is living at home. So now I have to live alongside this man ( separate bedrooms anyway because he snores) in a way that doesn't affect my son ( I'm not going to tell my son of my plans because stability at uni is too important) or my mental health.
Has anyone in MN had to live with a husband while employing a ' grey rock' technique and come out of it successfully with their sanity intact?
Thanks you for reading to the end.

MNHQ have said they are looking into providing a special board for this topic

Fingers crossed.

Sending and un-mumsnetty hugs to all going through this

I can see why people want a separate board. But I do worry that it will give validation to dickheads who say "Oh, but I'm addicted- I can't stop. You have to support me!"

That is a real concern, that porn slobs will try to claim we need to take pity on them and offer support.
However, we can tell them there's a difference between porn addiction and chemical addictions like drugs and alcohol. Porn addicts do not become physically addicted to using porn. It's a psychological addiction, which is much easier to break. They won't get the DTs if they stop, so they don't require detox or an addiction recovery program. Nothing bad will happen to them if they stop. If they don't stop it's because they don't want to. Not all addictions are equal.

Is it not a board for all the partners of these idiots?

I think it's relevant too - judging by the Reddit board it's a huge problem - admittedly some women have no issue at all- but many many women do and men should be mindful that we don't all think it's a bit of harmless normality - for many women it totally gives us the ick about users- whether that's illogical or not -

I don't think so. I think most of us know that's no excuse, it would be nice to discuss without the "80% of men watch porn" brigade.

The men who troll MN because they like to bother women would find it, so users would have to be prepared for it.
Seems like a couple of them found this thread.
Also, the female apologists for porn would find it too.

@CassieMaddox "I don't think so. I think most of us know that's no excuse, it would be nice to discuss without the "80% of men watch porn" brigade."

How can we keep them off?

True.

I don't mind hearing opposing viewpoints about it as long as it's a balanced discussion and not trolls

Exactly. Just look at this thread. The pro-porn brigade tried to shame the OP, offered dire warnings about never being able to find a man who isn't into porn and even blamed her for her pornsick husband's lack of interest in sex. Pro-porn trolls pop up in support threads for partners of porn addicts all the time. They want to give women an argument about our boundaries, because it benefits them if women have no boundaries. They hate the fact that more and more women are drawing a line in the sand about creepy, exploitative sexual behaviour. So they try to convince women to accept it.

The standard issue lines, several of which were used in this thread;

"Don't kink shame."
"You're a prude."
"You're controlling."
"All men use porn. You won't find one who doesn't."
"You just don't like men."
"Be realistic."
"Men need porn because visual stimulation."
"It's none of your business what he wanks to."
"It's harmless. You're just uptight."
"It's normal."
"It's the way men are. Accept it or you'll die alone."

We need a sign up sheet for willingness to die alone. ;-)

Did you establish before you married him whether he enjoyed pornography and make it clear that you were totally against it? If no, it's not fair to make him feel guilty about hiding something just to keep you happy if you never warned him you wouldn't tolerate it.

I reckon most men enjoy visual porn, whereas female porn tends to be textual, from the fairly mild Harliquin Romance genre, up to the sometimes really explicit fan fiction and slash fiction, most of which is written by heterosexual women. OK, porn by and for women doesn't usually need the actual involvement of real people but given the advances in AI image creation I expect most visual porn for men doesn't either nowadays.

I think we are aware 80% of men probably do watch it- but they aren't all watching it most days and sadly I suspect 50% of mumsnetters don't think their partners actually do watch it and would feel differently in many cases if they realised what they did watch on a regular basis and that it's not a bit of mild titillation- a great deal of it is extremely hard core these days . As I've said on an earlier post if blokes were whipping out hard core VHS videos in the 80s 5 days a week we would think they were utter sleazes and reconsidering our marriages- because it's all hidden on phones and tablets we are expected to simply lump it

By saying its a support board? I don't know. Maybe we can't.

If we don’t establish at the start of a relationship that we’re against gambling / alcohol / cocaine / compulsive spending addictions do we have to put up with those too if they come to light?

@InWithPeaceOutWithStress indeed.

I'm always amused (in a this isn't funny kind of way) that some people appear to believe men were unable to masturbate until around 1900. Men must have spent the previous 7 million years, poised, hand on dick, waiting for the first "visual images"....

Apart, obviously, from the rich ones, who commissioned paintings......

@CurlewKate I know it sounds odd but I would have less issue with porn in the 70s and 80s where a guy might be hanging onto the odd 'girly mag' - it seemed far more 'open' and to be frank was pretty tame compared to what's out there these days- it's the relentless secrecy that pisses me off and the fact that it's mainly hard core stuff mixed in with constant adverts for local hookers and one to one webcams etc

🤗🌷xx

Yep. I think a lot of women have no idea what "porn" actually means these days. Anal, choking, slapping, incest, hair pulling. It's mostly violent and degrading to women and not about sex at all.

I think it should be banned as its warping men's brains.

@CassieMaddox and it gives the idea women are constantly 'up for it'. I would be interested if all these 30 and 40 something women feel as 'relaxed' about it post menopause when they 'may' no longer have perfect body's and don't feel like sex much in many cases. I started to feel uncomfortable getting undressed in front of H when they kind of stare and you know full well what they watch .illogical- maybe! But that's how I felt.

The “porn addiction” is, in most cases, a bit of a red herring.

The vast majority of men watch porn because they want to. They like getting their rocks off to it and they give not one shiny shit about whether the woman they are sexually aroused by has consented. They also don’t care that many of the things in very mainstream porn are damaging to women as individuals and as a class.

They aren’t addicted. They just don’t want to stop. Saying “but I’m addicted” means they don’t have to take responsibility or put in any effort.

It’s an absolute red line for me - OP, you keep your boundary, please.

I'm a man (for context) and I agree that lying about porn is very destructive in relationships, as is excessive porn use. I am repulsed by the extreme stuff out there. Personally I would be willing to quit porn completely if my wife wanted me to (but she doesn't care.) But I am also very aware of the lure of visual stimulation, and I think lots of men are so accustomed to this now and would find it hard to go back, kind of like how people would find it hard to give up smartphones or large TVs. I know it's not the same thing, but I think it's a similar dynamic for the men - they know that they like the modern way and that lots of others do it, so they don't want to deprive themselves. I'm not saying it's right, but it looks like a long road back from here and I'm not sure how we would get there.

Shall we start a support thread for now?

I don't t want to feel like I'm hijacking the op's thread

But chatting about this is making me feel better and I've been feeling pretty low about it all recently.

Maybe it could be helpful for a few posters to have a dedicated conversation

Some women are into nearly all of that (apart from the incest!). Yes I appreciate only a very small minority like the slapping and choking.