Is people pleasing manipulative?

[Lookatthesun83]

I’m just wondering. I have a family member who literally lives by trying to please everyone. Going out of their way to appear perfect and nice and overly accommodating.

@Eyeslikethesea you absolutely can. You'll just lose alot of dead wood potentially and eventually feel an awful lot better.

It sounds like she fundamentally doesn't know how to relate to other people.

Somewhere she was learned a list of tasks eg make sure kids are in nice outfits, do favours for others and she thinks that if she ticks off all the tasks in the list she will have reached perfection.

Unfortunately human beings don't work this way as she found at work - they don't necessarily return favours, they start taking you for granted and so on.

But as she doesn't know how else to behave she gets defensive, withdraws or goes even further OTT on the pleasing.

It doesn't work and makes her and others miserable.

There are loads of reasons she could be like this.

I think we have a different definition of people pleasing. People pleasers often have a limit - they'll try to see the best in people and go to the nth degree to be agreeable but even they have a limit. People pleasing is caused by years of abusive conditioning.

If you see it as being dishonest, go ahead but I don't think they are intending to be dishonest.

I have no problem with people saying no to things (I do myself!) as long as they are people who can sometimes compromise.

The other thing about covert narcissists is that they want to separate their partner/family from the broader family. So assuming this is your DH's brother and his wife, part of her goal is to ensure that her DP, your BIL, has as little contact with his side of the family as possible. this may be by making it awkward and uncomfortable when you are all together - so that you invite them less, spend less time together. This has the added benefit (to the narcissists mind) that they can play the victim even more while simultaneously further widening the rift, "it's such a bity that Lookatthesun and family don't seem to want to spend time with us. I guess they're just too rich/posh/busy/snobby for us these days. It's sad they've changed such a lot but it's okay, we don't need them, we'll be okay together."

They're also masters at making their core victims appear to be "bad guys". You've already made a couple of comments about your BIL which suggests this is happening here. In many cases, this is because the victim may well have personality traits taht can be triggered by the narcissist and then used against them. Eg someone who can be be defensive/shouty/aggressive in a relationship with a narcissist will find that behaviour being triggered. This works for the narcissist as they can then be the victim again, "you see, this is what you do. You scream and shout and abuse me." wthout any need for them to take responsibility for their own actions.

Absolutely

Therapist here. No it's not manipulative it normally comes from a place of great anxiety, it's a coping method and not done with a negative outcome in mind. Go easier on the person you know they're not trying to be manipulative, they're the ones that are often taken advantage of in my experience

If you are people pleasing to avoid conflict or to appear nice isn’t that manipulation of the situation? Why would just being yourself and doing what you want be a problem?

This is very possible. People who are victims of narcissists in their childhood have a good chance of becoming narcissists or of becoming a victim again into adulthood. I don't know a lot about narcissistic parents but there is a lot written on the different ways children are treated by these people which can have interesting knock on effects when older.

There was an interesting thread on here a while back by a woman who had grown up in a narcissistic family. As adults, she was still completely under her parents' thumb while her brother had gone completely the other way and was refusing to take any responsibility for their parents or have any relationship with them. Even knowing her parents (mother mostly I think) had been awful, the poster was still struggling with how her brother could just walk away.

She even smiles at the sexual jokes her partner makes about her in front of his parents, when you can see she is uncomfortable.

Does nobody pick him up on this? Presumably at the very least there's you, your husband and his parents - four adults who witness this. Doesn't anyone say anything?

No, it often stems from not feeling good enough and wanting people to like you.

tbh you sound more toxic than her 🤣

I can understand this person in my life is very anxious, can’t work etc. But she gets quite hostile when the pleasing doesn’t work. For example it doesn’t work with me because I want honest relationships with people who turn up as themselves. She seems to them double down on those who like them and try and own them if that makes sense.

I do but she doesn’t back me up and laughs so I stopped because I look like the problem.

I agree with other posters that you are not dealing with a people pleaser but rather someone who is, at best, not very nice, but at worst, someone who is fairly toxic.

By your definition, any decision made with any consideration for another person is manipulative. Of course we all do things in order to feel better about ourselves or to be considered nice. That doesn't mean they aren't genuine things. I do not particularly feel like the social arrangement I have planned today. I am not going to cancel because that would be rude and and would let down other people and I don't want people to think I am rude (or do I want to be the kind of person who IS rude) and because I think it's important to stick to your plans without good reason. Does this make me manipulative?

In my experience the ones who love to tell you they’re people pleasers or “hate confrontation” or declare they can’t put up boundaries are anything but and yes I think it’s often a manipulative thing (But not always consciously done). The real people pleasers are the ones who just quietly go around doing it and staying under the radar and not making any waves. They tend to be genuinely kind but struggle to ‘make space for themselves’. This is just my experience though.

Well that’s what I was worrying about but then I do have friends and I don’t go around saying every women is toxic. I will like people if I like people and not because that person is trying to get me to like them. You have to have things in common and can be open and honest and have a laugh. You can’t have friendships based on the other person doing things to please you.

I meant more like basing the people you have in your life on whether they like you pleasing them. For example this person will change their hobbies and views based on who they with and pleasing. She wanted her MIL approval so took up all her hobbies, isn’t that odd. Don’t you meet people by having your identity set and meeting like minded people? She really NEEDS approval so behaves in the way the people she needs the approval of behave, like a mirror.

Because you've been conditioned into avoiding conflict because the abuser comes down on you like a ton of bricks, usually in an unequal situation such as parent and child.

"I think we have a different definition of people pleasing. People pleasers often have a limit - they'll try to see the best in people and go to the nth degree to be agreeable but even they have a limit. People pleasing is caused by years of abusive conditioning.

If you see it as being dishonest, go ahead but I don't think they are intending to be dishonest.

I have no problem with people saying no to things (I do myself!) as long as they are people who can sometimes compromise."

@HughsMermaid I agree that they are not intending to be dishonest, but it is dishonest to basically never reveal your true thoughts, feelings or ideas for fear of being disliked. It means your relationships are built on sand because the person opposite you has no idea who you really are.

And like I say, the opposite of people pleasing is not narcissism, it is confidence and assertiveness: two traits that are often perceived very positively in men and very negatively in women. I am not a people pleaser in any shape or form. But neither am I a bully or an abuser. And I am perfectly happy to compromise and have constructive conversations with the people around me.

It's a learned response OP usually in childhood in order to survive. Problem is it becomes a default response.

Yes I agree it can be due to conditioning. It can be unhealthy and manipulative when done to people who aren’t abusing you.

Well, based on everything you've written, your SIL really sounds like an unpleasant, manipulative person. Just not a people pleaser.

Having said that, taking up a hobby because someone you want to get to know/be close to such as a MIL doesn't seem THAT weird to me. My DH was inspired to take up running in part because the men in my family are all keen runners and convinced him to give it a try. Having never done any running, he gave it a go and was a happy runner, including a couple of marathons, for a few years until he got injured and had to stop. He would never have taken it up if not for my dad and brother but I don't think it was manipulative. It would have been ridiculous if he'd kept running even if he hated it. He did go for a few runs in the sort of environments he didn't like a few times (he preferred road running, they prefer cross country), just to be friendly to my dad/brother but I consider that just compromising occassionally.

I never said you couldn't compromise. I've hit a raw nerve clearly. But I won't apologise 🤣

Codependent behaviours (including people pleasing) can be manipulative, because the person is trying to shape their public persona to be likeable. I'd look up codependency to learn more.

Yeah I get that taking up hobbies to get close to people. I’ve taken up my partners hobby a little because it’s actually quite cool and we spend nice time together but in no way am I doing it so he likes me more. I don’t sit on social media bragging about us doing it together and how close we are. That’s the weird bit. There seems to be a motive.

"I never said you couldn't compromise. I've hit a raw nerve clearly. But I won't apologise 🤣"

@HughsMermaid I find Mumsnet so strange sometimes. I was under the impression we were having a conversation but it never seems to take long for the accusations and passive aggressive behaviour to begin. You really haven't hit a raw nerve-we were having a discussion, and sometimes that will involve disagreeing with each other. There is also nothing to apologise for so I don't know why you are implying that an apology was expected.