Married to someone with Asperger's/ASD/ND: support thread 12

[Daftasabroom]

New thread.

This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.

It's complicated and it's emotional.

The old thread is here.

@Ohdostopwafflinggeremy I have EXACTLY the same. I no longer cover for him. Refuse. Cracks have started to appear/ gape open.

It’s not a love that benefits the animals particularly, and it is more about him and his feelings than anything else

This is H. I only exist to him in terms of how I make him feel. Love for him is a feeling he has. I genuinely don’t think he has any real insight into the fact that I have thoughts and feelings and desires and ambitions of my own. When he does mention my feelings they are only ever in relation to him, similarly my behaviour.

My relationship in any real sense the day I had the crushing revelation that he had no idea who I am. I had assumed he had spent our relationship building up knowledge and understanding of who I am. That all the things I had told him over the years had built up a picture for him of who I am. It was utterly devastating to realise that had just not been happening.

It’s the same for the kids. He doesn’t really as know who they are either. He can’t tailor his behaviour or interactions with the kids to who they are.

This makes a lot of sense, I also feel this in some of my relationships. I have to be very mindful not to go into my own childhood learned behaviour and start people pleasing to gain attention. Staying true to yourself and knowing it will get you ignored is difficult. It is hard to maintain relationships with people who are like this because it feels rubbish to not be part of things. My partner is ND and so is his mum. My partner is better with relationships (or maybe he masks better). His mum on the other hand who id like to have a better relationship with is not able to extend her empathy and acceptance betting herself. It is so obvious and so difficult to know how to form a relationship where being yourself won’t work.

It is so obvious and so difficult to know how to form a relationship where being yourself won’t work.

this is what I struggle with in a nutshell.

Thank you for this. I'm an ASD man; my daughters (2), my sister (1 or 2), my dad are ASD. My ex-wife, sister (other of 2), brother, mum, are NT.

Yes, I show love by being of service. So do those ASD people I've named. The deed doesn't feel like a word for everyone though - for my wife, it took her finding me up at 3am folding sheets to realise there was something in this. When my mum got cancer, my dad started to grow a vegetable garden. He didn't talk about diets needed changing, he's just been growing vegetables for 30 years. He doesn't say "I love you"; he leaves fresh tomatoes on the breakfast table before everyone is up. Of course, that also becomes a "special interest"; but because he values it for reasons of his own, that doesn't mean he doesn't value it for everyone else.

My colleagues teaching autism with Luke Beardon (him: blogs.shu.ac.uk/autism) say that this is a double empathy problem: not just an inability of your autistic DH/DC/etc, to empathise with you, but also an inability of NTs to empathise with their austistic near one. This takes as much care and learning and deepening of relationships as any effort couples make to relate.

I can see the pain you're going through. I do also see that for many of you, your DH/DC is not just autistic, they are lazy, anxious, traumatised, work-avoidant, bratty... I don't advocate tolerance for anyone pissing on your bathroom floor as revenge for not being allowed to spoil a film. But there are autistic men who grow special interests in cleaning, cooking, and problem solving just to relate with you through work. Watch them. Join them. Let them know you love them in their "words", then you'll have an easier time asking them to let you know in your words.

I do also see that for many of you, your DH/DC is not just autistic, they are lazy, anxious, traumatised, work-avoidant, bratty...

Traumatised yes.
And having developed unhealthy ways to cope with their autism and the response they got from people around then (incl their own parents )

Some of the behaviours described are, imo, plain unacceptable and not related to autism (or only indirectly).
But I also think that saying the behaviours we experience are simply not connected and no person w autism is like this is just as wrong.
Because being autistic is traumatising - just look at the high level of suicide!
And that has a huge impact on how they learn to react, even more so when we are talking about people who often have only been diagnosed as an adult (often after their own dcs have been diagnosed).
I really think that ignoring the interplay between autism and trauma is doing everyone a disservice .

eg my own dh never ever talks. He rarely an opinion. He is fully avoidant. And that avoidance is trauma based from years if bullying as a child, feeling like people don’t understand him (I include myself there) etc…
I dint think it’s possible to separate what is trauma and what is autism for him. It’s all linked and interlinked, feeding each other too.

@SpecialMangeTout , just in case I didn't write well enough:
"saying the behaviours we experience are simply not connected and no person w autism is like this, is wrong"
I agree completely: autistic doesn't automatically mean we're shit, but it's certainly not helping. Though frankly, I can name a few other things that don't help in that matter.

autistic doesn't automatically mean we're shit, but it's certainly not helping.

It’s interesting because I don’t think ‘being shit’ is the right word. I don’t think there should be judgement there.
Im physically disabled, just like my dh is disabled (emotionally, neurologically ? I’m genuinely not sure what is the right category here).
We both have things in us that can be ‘hard to deal with’, that’s often what makes us disabled (eg Im sure living with someone - me - who can only rarely cook a meal themselves is NOT easy).

I think judgement around ‘being hard work’ isn’t helping anyone - NT or people w ASD because it’s creating shame.

And YY to the fact many other things make things hard!!

id say though that, imho, one of the greatest issue is SHAME.
Shame driving DH reactions and mines. Shame and shaming the other person in response to hurt.

Ignorance on both sides (NT and ASD). Ignorance as in understanding what it means to be NT or on the spectrum. Also because imo ignorance breeds shame and finding fault in the other person (or in yourself, blaming yourself for the situation)

Ive learnt so much from those threads. NT partners or ASD partners. In a way that no other reading has ever done (too general, or too theoretical or sometimes too biased towards NT or ASD). I wish I had understood what I know now 15 years ago. And I wish that DH had (or was able to?) understood what ASD and NT means. Maybe we could have found a common ground wo both of us being hurt in the process. Understanding helps remove the shame associated with a condition such as ASD.

But for me, it was also essential to start with removing shame and finger pointing before I could really start understanding. (This doesn’t mean I’m not doing it from time to time lol. It’s a hard process). It’s so much easier to point fingers rather than making the effort to understand.

Shame breeding ignorance and ignorance leading to finger pointing and shame.

All that to say I’m touchy about wording that ‘someone is shit’. It feels too close to judging, labelling the person, shaming them rather than looking at the condition.

that was long! Well done if you managed to get to the end lol. I Hope it makes sense too. I can struggle to make myself clear these days.

I think it can be extremely difficult because the ND person is not going to understand the world from the other persons perspective. NT people’s brains do adapt a bit easier. They can empathise an awful lot for our ND partners and make changes but it’s a very one sided response a lot of the time as they are so rigid. I’m not sure ND people can understand the world from an NT viewpoint and make compromises, I may be wrong. I know I try and understand but it breaks my brain. I find my ADHD shit a lot of the time because people don’t connect that well to me in RL despite me really wanting them to. I don’t know what the hell I do wrong but it must be important. A lot of people don’t care about the disability they just think corrr this persons a little difficult and move on.

@rainbow03,

"the ND person is not going to understand the world from the other persons perspective. NT people’s brains do adapt a bit easier"
And my point is, it isn't so simple. I heard/read this before, along with stupider versions of it like "no theory of mind". ND people do understand the world from another perspective. But being nd means that we express ourselves and behave in ways that others don't read very well and especially, they don't read that in us.
We understand the other point of view all the time, especially if other means the large majority of those around us. Adapting, it depends. If it means controlling a traumatic behaviour it's unlikely. If it means relaxing the general dyspraxia that causes those characteristic autistic gestures no chance, yet it's still presented as an autistic trait to control:
"Empathise with me, I'm offended to see you bobbing up and down when you walk"
Well I can't control this after years of physio, and I'm not going to stay at home just so your street feels sanitised so anyone asking the impossible can empathise with me and f off.
NT people adapt easier to each other. The fast judgements they make show they don't adapt that much. Eye contact, hand shake, pulling your chair the right way. Everyday people pitch each other professionally and socially according to micro-criteria that also exclude ND people.

You write empathy is one of the things you need. Yet you talk about the need to relate. I bet you spend more time thinking of people and working with their feelings than anyone around you suspects. Like the lion in the wizard of oz that doesn't need extra bravery, you're empathetic.

A lot of us are with partners who are dealing with other associated conditions like alexithymia, plus trauma, as PPS suggest.

We are also often parenting ASD kids (or suspected ASD kids, in my case). So we do see different presentations of ASD and do our very best to equip them to navigate the world. And we see the results of the double empathy's problem playing out in their lives for example.

Yes I do spend a lot of time trying to work people out, trying to figure out why they behave like they do, trying to fit in because I’m socially awkward a lot of the time. I don’t want to offend because I tend to ask questions that go too deep in conversations that are small talk. I don’t understand small talk, I want to talk to everyone the same and people don’t like it. I spent the afternoon with in laws and extended family yesterday. The whole thing is so stressful. People have all sorts of different things going on. Eg partners brother has to be the best, always in a secret competition. Conversations which I’m not interested in because they are inauthentic. Funny none of them will ever make sure I’m comfortable in a conversation yet I will always make sure people are in my house. Lots of his family are very judgmental. I am not at all and it has got me into not so good situations hanging onto not so good people.

I wonder why I’m so empathetic and really want people to connect with me but many people who are probably NT just don’t seem to. I’m maybe too full on and ask too many questions because I really see people and want to know them but there’s too many masks going on.

NT people adapt easier to each other.

And I suspect ASD people adapt easier to each other too.
And I see the same between people who are healthy and those who are chronically ill. There is an understanding of each other situation that healthy people simply don’t get.

I think that’s because, some times, you need to experience things to really get them. Knowing about them can give you clues but it’s not the deep understanding coming from having lived through (or with) it.

But being nd means that we express ourselves and behave in ways that others don't read very well and especially, they don't read that in us.

And I think that’s coming from ignorance. Ignorance fuelled by shame because being different is shameful.
You have the same attitude at play with racism/xenophobia too.

@Rainbow03 i think most people are happy with a small circle around them, often constituted by family and friends they made at primary school. They’re not interested in other people for more than mere acquaintances.
You just have to read the many threads on here where people struggle to make friends after moving to another town.

Being ‘different’ in any way makes things even harder.
Ive had the same experience because I’m not British. So yes I don’t react exactly how you’re supposed to react, even though I’m NT (and have been in the U.K. fir a quarter of a century). And the doors close around me.

Its shit. But I’m going to say on that one, it’s them (too).

Do people generally think being different is shameful? I didn’t really feel shame until I realised I don’t fit that well and then I feel bad about myself.

Just checking in. It's been a busy summer.

This thread’s been derailed by NDs talking themselves. I wish it were better moderated.

That's why I didn't post for a while.

I get that NDs have challenges that aren't their fault but it is also difficult to be in a relationship with a ND person. Seems we're not allowed our own support thread either. Even that ends up about them and their challenges.

Yes it is difficult.
And many of the posters who are ND are ALSO in a relationship with someone on the spectrum. Just reread the opening post. No one has ever said this thread was only for NT living with ND partners.

I absolutely do not feel the thread has been ‘over run’ by ND people in that respect.

I do appreciate the take from someone who is ND.
Because it helps me understand better. But I’m not going to either use ASD as an excuse for bad behaviour (even though it might be a reason).

However, I refuse to use shame or a diagnosis to have a go at anyone.
Im not going to become a perpetrator (look at the Drama Triangle) and remove myself from any responsibility from the situation I’m finding myself in.
Nor would I accept anyone who is ND coming over and act as the perpretator towards NT (like ‘it’s all your fault NT if me, as an autistic person, am struggling because you don’t do enough for us’ type of discourse - not saying that anyone has said that on here. It’s just an example of what could be said by some people).

After that we are all people struggling and deserving support.

Hi @SquirrelSoShiny
Are things going ok ish for you atm?

So many things on here chime with my experience. My DH says he 'can't understand why something else does/thinks/likes something' and he cannot get that he doesn't need to understand. He needs to allow other people to be different from him. he also thinks that his opinion about anything is fact, even if it's something he's never given any thought to until the moment it was suggested. He won't go and find out about things. He is very disparaging about attributes he doesn't like e.g. long hair on women/cardigans/Manchester accents. Of course, he's allowed to not like these but he makes it colour his whole attitude to the person with these attributes. I think because my mother was similar, I learned to try and agree with things in the hope that this would make her like me and show me love. Sadly, didn't work.

@sunstreaming my DH is like this too.
DH has been away for a few days and I can’t tell you the relief I’ve felt. No eggshells, no twisted words, no bizarre assumptions about me ...

The thread is called married to someone with Aspergers . That's why NT partners are discussing their marriage to someone who is ND.

I've posted here before but namechanged recently. We're doing OK here, DH went on vyvanse and it is a gamechanger! Life is so much easier for both of us.

I find @Rainbow03 's perspective very useful. Also very familiar in some ways!

Sorry I hopefully haven’t de-railed, now I feel
terrible. My partner and my mum and mum in law are all ND. It help me to see how other people especially NT people think because it helps me realise that some of my thinking just isn’t quite “right”, or should I say conducive for a good relationship. I do think the change has to come from both sides.