Confused- sex when one person doesn’t want to

[noitsachicken]

I’m married with children. Things haven't been great, DH can be up and down with his moods and easily become cross at times. But most of the time things are ok, he does he fair share around the house and lots with the children.
Recently I haven’t always been in the mood for sex, I am perimenopausal and when he has been cross with me or the kids I just don’t want to.
I tend to avoid it by going to bed early, but sometimes I can’t and just say no, but this often leads to sulking, and can affect his mood.
A few times recently he has tried to start something, I’ve sometimes been asleep, sometimes I’ve said no, and not reciprocated but he has carried on. I just kind of froze and let it happen.
I’m not sure if I’ve not been clear enough, I feel like my body language is clear, one time my legs were crossed and he pushed them apart.
But maybe I need to just say No and deal with the moodiness.

The most recent time I was led there and he was touching me, I hadn’t said anything and he was carrying on. He was being a little more rough than usual, eventually I said ‘you’re hurting me’ he stopped and apologised.

I don’t feel like he has forced me into sex, but feel like it’s clear I don’t want to but he has carried on.

I’ve lost sight of what is ok.

Hi OP, I just wanted to reply to your post and say I understand what you mean when you explain how you ended up having sex even though every part of you is saying no. I've been there and am living it now to a degree.

I'm divorcing my stbexh and like yours, he is and has been, moody, aggressive and intimidating to a certain extent. He has never forced me to have sex, but I've had sex with him on many, many occasions just because I felt I had too. I know that all too familiar feeling of dreading going to bed because you know they'll either try to have sex or will want it.

I understand the 'freezing'. I feel like I have just shut down over the years because of his behaviours and I'm guessing this is what is happening to you too. It's like I'm screaming inside but I can't verbalise my feelings. It's like a coping strategy.

He knows that you don't want to have sex with him because of your body language, because you're not reciprocating and because I'm guessing you're not physically getting aroused either from what he's doing to you. Yet he still carries on. You're freezing because you're shutting down and are fundamentally scared.

I'm having counselling now and it's really helping me, so maybe this is something you might consider? It's helping me unpick behaviours and understand why I react to things like I do. It's also helped me get clarity about my marriage and understand that his behaviour was not, and is still not, acceptable. I feel validated.

Ultimately, what he's doing is very, very wrong. No, he probably wouldn't accept or see that it's wrong. My stbexh didn't accept that his behaviour was abusive either. He felt justified in his actions and hence I'm divorcing him. I deserve better and so does our child.
So do you. Keep talking on here

Thanks everyone.
I have been reading about sexual coercion and a lot of that makes sense to me.
I find it hard to admit I have been sexually assaulted, but everything I’m reading tells me that is what has happened.
But I’m not sure I could talk about this with anyone in real life.
What if no one believes me?
What if he says I didn’t say No? Should have told him more clearly?
That it’s my fault because I don’t show him any affection (something he’s said before)

That it’s my fault because I don’t show him any affection (something he’s said before)

Clearly he knows his behaviour is wrong and it is human nature to want to deflect this onto the other person; but I think it gets more complicated than that - one of the reasons that you might find it hard to show him any affection is because you know that doing so will instantly result in him wanting sex, whether you want that or not. Any kindly gesture runs the risk of you feeling obliged to participate in sex, even when you do not wish to, as he will interpret it as an invitation.

And it is hard to show affection to someone who regards sex as being entirely for his own gratification to the point where he is happy to do this with/to someone who is clearly not actively either participating or enjoying it - and is indeed obviously distressed.

How are you supposed to show affection under these circumstances?

Here the thing op, you don't have to prove anything to anyone. You don't even to tell anyone that you don't want to tell.
(Personally I'd be telling everyone close to me he was abusive though, provided they're not the sort to encourage you to stay and tolerate it).

If you do report him to the police, they've heard it all before so won't be surprised. It's not shocking to them. Normal seeming blokes turn out to be bastards all the time.

Getting a convcition might be hard as these things are often hard to convict. But ultimately, getting away from him is the main goal anyway. And all you need for that is to believe in yourself.

As for affection, would you rape him if he didn't show you any affection? Of course not.

Rape is about dominance, contempt and control.
Decent people just don't do it.

@noitsachicken i think you’ll find there are very few abusive men who will admit to what they have done. It’s irrelevant whether he acknowledges what he’s done or not, you know what he’s done and deep down so does he. It’s possible that, much like you are struggling to accept what has happened, he wouldn’t recognise what he is doing as rape because he can justify his actions with his own twisted logic (he didn’t hurt you, you’re his wife, you didn’t say no, you didn’t pull away) but you must remember that none of that equals consent, none of it is justifiable.

Lack of affection from one partner does not give the other the right to take what they want by force. You can think of 101 reasons of how he could justify it but none of them would be valid. There is no justification, excuse or reason to force yourself on another person. That is very much victim blaming and trying to excuse abhorrent behaviour.

Im not sure confronting him about it is necessarily the right way to go, you are clearly still coming to terms with this and it sounds like it would be easy for him to confuse you and disregard what you’re saying. Undoing any progress you’ve made with accepting this reality. We can’t tell you that everyone in real life will believe you because people are unpredictable. Hopefully those that know you well will take your word as truth but obviously may struggle to align this version of him with the one they know (unless he presents publicly as an awful human being). I would suggest getting in touch with Women’s Aid for advice about counselling and, if you aren’t ready to leave, ways to protect yourself.

We all just want you to be safe and live in peace, even without the assault he sounds like an awful person to have to live with.

Your body language is clearly telling him you do not want what he is doing to you, he KNOWS. You do not have to say the word "no" for it to be rape/assault. If you were mute and physically incapable of speech the arguement "she didn't say no" wouldn't fly, it is NO different if you don't say "no" due to freezing, you are temporarily incapable of saying what you want to say due to your fight or flight response.
It is equally understandable that you just lay there and don't push him away or resist, because again, you are subconsciously trying to protect yourself. You are much less likely to be physically injured during a sexual assault/rape if you don't resist, and if you don't fight back they are less likely to be agressive or violent.

A person who wants sex will reciprocate in some way, touching back, moving themself into position to accomodate penetration etc. Even a very sleepy but willing person will make some noticeable physical attempt to facilitate sex. You are not doing that, so it is obvious you don't want it. Just like if you hug someone and they don't hug back, it is very clear they don't want the hug.

He has absolutely no excuse, no mentally capable, reasonable person could believe this is consentual. No loving, respectful partner could continue to touch you, let alone have sex with you, when there is no reciprocal response. A good person of any gender would not want to continue when the sexual activity is not wanted, because there's nothing sexy or appealing about assaulting someone.

Sometimes I will ultimately move to accommodate what is happening, but it’s just to make the inevitable easier.
It’s so hard to explain, and I find it so confusing. Sometimes I will also climax from the experience, which again confuses me, because I must be enjoying it to some degree?
The last time I didn’t though, and that time felt the most invasive.

Friction can cause climax. Nothing to do with wanting the experience or not.

I'd imagine things like adrenaline from fear would make it more likely too.

How are things today op, have you started to put a plan together?

@noitsachicken i have read somewhere else that sometimes victims of rape will orgasm. I don’t know the science behind it but I wanted to let you know you are not alone. And it is very confusing. You are not consenting though even if you’ve been facilitating. Because otherwise you will probably get hurt physically. Please do not doubt yourself. We’ve all tried to explain that you are not enthusiastically consenting. Your husband knows this.
How was sex like before he started to force it on you? dont get hung up on worrying about whether someone will believe you or not. For now you need to put an end to this as this will destroy you mentally. Please sleep in another room with a lock.

I have no fear that he will hurt me.
Things are ok, that’s half the issue. A lot of the time everything is normal and fine.
This morning was a bit tense, a bit shouty/angry. Eldest went to school upset because he threw a shoe at him, (in the context of helping him find the shoe).

The last couple of years I think I have stopped trying to get him to change, and stopped making excuses (in relation to his anger). So I think I am generally more distant, less emotionally available, less affectionate and he’s picked up on this. Probably feeling rejected.
I stopped enjoying sex because I didn’t really enjoy spending time with him, that plus peri has meant that things dwindled away.

Your body will respond to the physical stimulation whether you're enjoying it or not. Many many rape victims, myself included have spent a lot of time in therapy talking about this exact phenomenon. It's confusing, frightening and muddies the water.

Anything other than an enthusiastic yes is a no. How could you possibly consent to something that he starts while you're asleep? And what kind of man would want an unconscious woman as a sexual partner?

Throwing a shoe at your child is NOT normal. Seriously. Your children will be picking up on all of this, even if you think they won’t. You NEED to get away from this man.

What sort of man wants sex when his partner isn't responding to him.....

Start wearing pants and pyjamas to bed at the very least. And if he asks why, say so it's clear that you're not accessible as he doesn't seem to understand normal cues.

I do wear underwear and pyjamas

Sorry to hear you're experiencing this, and that it is continuing. I think maybe you are highlighting things that don't fit with the narrative of rape and convincing yourself that this means it isn't really happening. So for instance, things like you telling him he's hurting you and him stopping... yes, that in isolation might be a case of him mistakenly being a bit too rough and correcting it promptly when you tell him. Or him asking you recently if he should stop and then doing so. Or more generally/non-sexually, the fact that a lot of the time your life together is fine.

But just because these things don't fit the pattern, that doesn't mean that he isn't assaulting you at other times. Most people don't behave universally badly, even if it's their natural inclination, and a big reason for that is that a lot of partners would up and leave them if they did, because the behaviour would seem cut and dried and the decision would be simple.

How is all this actually making you feel? You say you aren't physically scared of him. But are you on edge, or do you find yourself worrying about the upcoming night, or do you feel intimidated about the idea of bringing this up with him? None of these things are how it should be, and I hope you are slowly starting to see that.

The home life you have isn't right for you or your dc.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned the cup of tea analogy. Could you have accepted a cup of tea when you were asleep? No. Then you also couldn't have consented to sex.

smallstepsbigfuture.wales/sex-is-like-a-cup-of-tea-consent/

He sounds absolutely awful.

Have you considered counselling? Just for you?

I'm sorry.

This is horrible.

If you can’t believe he’s assaulting you, can you believe that he’s a danger to your children?

Sadly, they’re living with a rapist.

I understand that this man has ground you down so much that you think you deserve this treatment, but please protect your children.

You mentioned his ongoing anger issues though op. Do you want your children to grow up in a home with this? Witnessing their mother stay and tolerate it?

You are the benchmark for their future relationships.

If you don't want them to grow up to be like him or be abused by people like him, you need to get out. Show them we do not stay with angry bullies.

It sounds like he bullies them too. They deserve a safe home they can retreat to away from him. You cannot protect them by staying. All that happens is it breaks their heart seeing you abused.

You also say he won't hurt you but - rape is assault. He does hurt you. Repeatedly. Personally I'd rather be beaten than raped. Either way, only men who HATE women rape them. And, you're a woman.

@noitsachicken it sounds like you have lived for so long in a state of perpetually being on edge and as you said walking on egg shells around your husband that your perspective of what is a ‘normal’ home life is so far removed from the reality of what most of us would consider normal. Here are a few things you have mentioned in your comments that I would not consider normal or fine:

• to have to make excuses to your children to explain away their fathers anger towards them or their mother
• to throw things at people
• to sulk and cause the household to feel tense
• to shout, be angry so often
• to ask your children to adjust their behaviour to placate a grown man
• to have to remind your husband that he is the parent and should not treat his children as he does
• to be intentionally cruel
• For a husband to be unsupportive of a wife who wants to work or volunteer
• to feel anxious going to bed for fear of being assaulted by your husband (and I’m being very gentle on this point as I know you’re struggling to accept/comprehend what he is doing)

None of those things are normal or fine. It is not fine for you and it is most definitely not fine for your children. They have likely adapted to survive and avoid his temper so maybe you don’t see it but they are no doubt scared of him and unfortunately by staying you are not demonstrating to them that you can protect them. Please try to see this situation for what it is, I know you are scared and think it’s less disruptive to stay but you are living in a very toxic household and it’s causing you and your children so much sadness, pain and stress. Your life would be so much more peaceful if you left.

If you're not ready to leave yet, sleep in a seperate room. Either with your kids or if in a spare room, block the door with a dressing table or something when you sleep.

And beware, there's this thing that can happen where, in desperation you try to convince yourself it's not that bad. So you might keep letting it happen. Hoping to desensitise yourself to it.

Please don't do that. I know it hurts to face the truth but, please find the courage. Take precautions to protect yourself as best as possible whilst you decide on next steps.

Because if you remain in denial, he will continue to assault you and, eventually...that path will probably end in a complete psychological breakdown. That is assuming he doesn't go further and kill you some day. Which you can't rule out because, he's abusive, and violent.