"I stopped chasing the Hollywood vision of female friendship – and embraced the person I am"

[babymamalove]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/13/why-i-quit-hollywood-female-friendship

New article on the Guardian about female friendships. This is something I've been struggling with loads recently (trying and failing to form more female friendships), and wow. I completely relate to this article.

I'm also trying to get the point of accepting it because it is so soul destroying putting yourself out there and not getting much in return time and time again, and always being on the outskirts of group things and thinking its something like my personality e.g. I am boring or too 'nice'?

Does anyone else relate?

I have no idea, the woman in the article sounds like hard work to me.

Even in that short article she's crowbarred in "quirky facts" about herself
She likes European Art House films..
speciality coffee,
documentaries about human rights abuses
Taking photos of auditoriums of old theatres

Fucking shit.
Most of her colleagues probably just wanted to natter bollocks about BGT or Big Brother, not listen to a preachy 'writer' wangling on about pretentious bollocks and PHDs.

Some people aren't people people.
Some people are people people.
People people tend to have lots in common with other people people.
Those who aren't people people often have little in common with people people.
Those who aren't people people would likely have better luck finding one or two friends who are also not people people.
If you're naturally not a people person, trying to find friends within a group of people people will fail.
Personally, I'm not a people person, i want nothing to do with people people or non people people. For years I tried to force myself to be a people person, but my interests never aligned with people people's interests.

So.
If you're a people person, seek people people.
If you're not naturally a people person, seek other non people people.

Hope that helps.

This did help. Thank you💓

To me it seemed like the writer had tried to alter herself to find friendships e.g. trying to make her interests social.

My closest friendships have arisen as a happy accident whilst doing my own thing. I've met people whilst studying the subjects that interest me or through my hobbies. I've not gone out there specifically to make friends. That way you meet people like you and with whom you have things in common, rather than the random group of people you're lumped together with in an office or at baby yoga.

The writer seems to have a very formulaic way of looking at people. People don't come naturally to her. I'd say she'd be better off joining a club for people who like taking quirky photos (there must be one, there's always a club) than trying to make friends at baby cinema.

The article resonates with me. I find friendships groups often rely on quite unhelpful group dynamics and powerplay that you have to accept in order to fit in. This includes minimising yourself, accepting a role assigned to you by the 'queen bee', allowing yourself to be patronised at times etc. And being prepared to talk about light hearted inanities ad infinitum appears to be an essential component in women's friendship groups.

being prepared to talk about light hearted inanities ad infinitum appears to be an essential component in women's friendship groups.

Not having to do this is a side benefit of making friends through hobby/interest groups. You always have your shared subject to talk about so don't have to cast around for inane small talk.

This includes minimising yourself, accepting a role assigned to you by the 'queen bee', allowing yourself to be patronised at times etc. And being prepared to talk about light hearted inanities ad infinitum

I resonated with this.
Trying to be in a group when you don't fit and trying to change yourself.

I think in my nonsense above, people people are the ones who can make this alterations and not be at all bothered, in fact, I think the true people people are happy to change thenselves. Non people people resent making those changes.

It evokes memories of 2006 and everyone in the office being mad on the football world cup. I watched several people pretend they were into it. When I asked them why, they'd basically say it's because they wanted to be part of the group going out and such, nothing to do with the football. Where as me, I'd say I didn't like football, and id get called a misery and not invited anywhere. #personalanecdotes

I am not a people person. I'd rather be me alone, than someone else who's lonely in a group.

I don't like football but love the world cup!

My friendships are based on similar values. That's it, no big secret. Be yourself, try not to be rude or dismissive and you will find others who are your people.

I mean not if you stay in reading or have no tolerance for any differences.

And yes you might have to adapt a bit, go out when they need you when you really don't want to or go clothes shopping because they want an honest opinion, just like you have to adapt in all relationships, motherhood, marriage, but just a bit.

It's nice having friends.

I just had my own thread going. I’m rubbish in friendship circles. I don’t really fit anywhere. God knows why I find it all so hard but I do.

I've never had a friendship group. I didn't know women were supposed to. I've been out in mixed groups of sexes and age ranges when I worked in offices in the 80's and 90's. I had a lot of (mostly boozy) fun then. But I've never had a regular girl group. I've always tended to make individual friendships with women that I particularly connect with through humour and world views. I'm not into celebrities or Big Brother or whatever so I don't think I'd last long in that sort of group dynamic.

It sounds like she tried to ‘fit in’? Watching BB when she didn’t really want to or enjoy it, trying to manufacture a version of herself.

She’s a writer, who likes art house films and takes photos of coffee- all a bit niche, pretentious? I don’t know.

Interesting.

Would you happily do something you actively dislike doing for the sake of having a friend?

Bear in mind I have absolutely zero interest in friendships to begin with so I disagree with the premise that it's nice having friends.

But, wouldn't the fact that you're actively doing something you hate, automatically make your friendship with that person based on a fallacy and a lie? Logically therefore, it's not a real friendship to begin with as you're true self is not the self your 'friend' is friends with? Fascinating.

I relate in that I've had times in my life where I've had to give up on seeking out friendships because the putting in a lot of effort and getting little back was turning me into someone I didn't like. I'm very cynical about the common advice to force yourself out of your comfort zone in the hope that the universe will reward you with friends.

If you've got a fixed idea of what you'd like from a friendship and aren't getting it then you can't always compromise. Sometimes you're better off doing your own thing than settling for a social life that does nothing for you.

@TuesdayWhistler

"But, wouldn't the fact that you're actively doing something you hate, automatically make your friendship with that person based on a fallacy and a lie? Logically therefore, it's not a real friendship to begin with as you're true self is not the self your 'friend' is friends with?"

I personally wouldn't do something I actively hated, no. I do think there has to be compromise though. If I valued someone as a friend then I would go to see a film I wasn't mad about or let them choose a Japanese restaurant even if I wanted Mexican. I would not sign up to a sheep's eye ball tasting tournament or bungee jumping however. The compromise situations would also have to be not one sided and not too often otherwise there'd be little point in being friends.

I've got old friends that I've held on to for years. New friends that I've met recently doing activities. I've had an official 'best friend' since 94.

The Mum friends I met through DS are the ones I'm least close with now as he's 16 and independent.

I've never experienced the Queen Bee / power dynamics you describe. That would make it really stressful, and not a friendship group. Anyone who behaves like a dingbat would have the piss taken out of them these days. We've all grown up together, from partying in our 20s, to babies (for some), miscarriages, divorces, death of parents, all that. Anyone who behaves like Amanda from Motherland would short shrift. That's shallow, real friendship.

I like people, always have. I don't know what the trick is. Being interested in people, not having high expectations of them, but believing most people are intrinsically kind?

Do you think everyone loves taking their kids to soft play endlessly, being interested in that fascinating stick or rock, listening to their partner drone on about work/hobbies, sympathising with their mother's millionth identical anecdote about some women you don't even know?

No.

To me, it's not "for the sake of having a friend", and it's not something that happens at the "forming a relationship" stage.

It's "having formed a relationship with a person, who I like and enjoy in many respects, I will then tolerate some interactions/activities I'm not so keen on, as they will for me, because of the underlying affection in the relationship".

That's quite distinct from "I will change myself utterly in an attempt to get someone, anyone, to like me".

That's shallow not real friendship.

Amusing how those who consider themselves too weird for friendships with other women are always 'weird' in a cool counter- culture art house way. They're never weird in a mallard spotting, Bucks Fizz fan, larping as an orc at the weekend kind of way, are they? On the plus side, they really won't have anywhere near the trouble finding friends they think they will, as cool counter culture art house types are actually a dime a dozen.

That's interesting.

Compromise.

It should be equal, absolutely, but so often there's those in friend groups that don't feel it's equal.
There's often a leader or Queen Bee and everyone falls inline with them.

Even me in my younger days fell into being the listener and helper and never the listened to or helped. Iyswim

I found my issue was expecting a ‘group’ of friends. I have lots of lovely friends who are all completely different from each other (and me in some cases!) but we’re all nice people who are interested in each other and are happy to have 1:1 catch ups. Do I have a big group of friends? No. Do I have a ride or die person? Not really. I’m close to some more than others, but we still have our own time and space. I guess that person would be my husband.

Occasionally I’d watch Friends with a bit of a pang, but most of the time I remember im an introvert and funnily enough I attract other introverts! That’s who I’m comfortable with and that suits me fine.

This line from the article pisses me off;

The only thing you have to figure out is: are you a) the clever one, b) the sexy one or c) the funny one?

I tjink she looks down on female friendships generally and thinks that the only topics for discussion are inane?

I've got a mate who has always been into political activism. She can be a bit hard work when you just want to talk about crap because she prefers a good long rant about whatever she's into at the time.

However she's got lots of great aspects to her, and I love those and have learned how to deal with the monologues.

Over time she's found her tribe of fellow activists but she's still part of our group too. And we've made friends with some of her new friends too. It's like it's always expanding.

I don't really hate anything to be honest. Yes I would do something that would absolutely be the bottom of my list, and have done loads of things being nosy (for example going to a polo day once), for the experience. In many ways you might think you don't like something but unless you have tried it you don't really know. I don't like polo even after going but I am glad I went.

I don't mean I would actively go to polo to seek a friend out, what I mean is when a good friendship is established then you do things for them, perhaps if need be, that you wouldn't necessarily choose or do for someone else. And a lot of the time, if you are with someone you like, the thing you are doing isn't so bad.

On a beautiful early summer morning you can go for a walk and share your fun good news with someone (outside the household) whom is genuinely happy for you and interested, share concerns or worries, ask advice if you have hit a brick wall or just witter a bit (and visa versa) listening to someone else's problems can put yours in perspective and make yours seem not so quite a mountain to climb, or if you or they have a creative block, or whatever.

Sometimes you can just practise your storytelling skills, as I did recently explaining why I am undertaking a mini project listening to some current rap music because the "beef" that has been reported is quite entertaining and I want to know what all the fuss is about. For absolutely no other reason than self interest. (Managed to sum it up in one paragraph). Not everyone's cup of tea but kinda sorta relevant to our teens right now and it's usually better to be informed.

I've never had to be fake. Or even pretend I like what I am doing, they know me, they also know if I'm doing something I will try to make the most of that situation because what's the alternative?

So for me, yes I stand by the comment it's nice having friends, but it's never "no work" to get and maintain them. And only works long term if it's give and take. No need to be fake at all. So they are friends with the real me, just to clarify.

Which is why I totally reject "friendship groups". They sound organised and non-organic and just not for me. I have a lot of friends and I meet some of them in different quantities at different times. As an example - there are four of us who get together (we met at university) in different permutations. Some of us have brought others along at different times. Sometimes I meet just one. It's all very fluid.

"Friendship groups" sound like hard work, needing membership, having to fit in and as for a queen bee, if ever one buzzed by me I would have nothing to do with them.

@frozendaisy

I want to thank you for the reply.
You sound like a wonderful person and you're friends are lucky to have you.

I, OTOH, am an arse. 🤪

Do you have a partner @TuesdayWhistler , if so will you only ever do things with them if you're 100% keen?

If I go along to a concert with my husband to see a band I'm not keen on because he has no one else to go with, or if I go shopping with my mother (I hate shopping) because she values my opinion, does that make my relationship with my husband and my mother a lie and a fallacy? We do these things because we have a bond, we care about the people in our lives and we want to do nice things for them.

It's the same with friends. Obviously there are limits. I have stepped back from a couple of friendships over the years when it's at the point they're just using me. There needs to be something in a friendship for me. The only unconditional relationships I have are with my children and grandchildren.

I find the attitude of some posters on this thread; that if you have a friendship group you have to make yourself smaller, be into Big Brother or shopping etc, and there has to be a queen bee calling the shots, patronising in the extreme. My interests are pretty niche and I hate reality TV and shopping, but I still manage to maintain a couple of circles of really interesting and loyal friends. We're all different and we love that about each other.

My life is definitely enhanced by my friendships.

Yes, it’s often a certain type of person making these statements. And honestly, if you were into something like mallard spotting or Larping, there would be groups where you can make friends!

I think it’s useful to consider different types of friendships and what they provide. I read a post on here where they used the quote about friends being for ‘a reason, a season, or a lifetime’, which I think is a useful way of looking at it. The mums I met on maternity leave were ’season’ friends and often the only thing we had in common was the fact we had babies at the same time, and it was nice to have that company. Same with school mums. It would have been nice to find a deeper friendship, but it’s not the end of the world if the friendship was quite superficial.