"I stopped chasing the Hollywood vision of female friendship – and embraced the person I am"

[babymamalove]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/13/why-i-quit-hollywood-female-friendship

New article on the Guardian about female friendships. This is something I've been struggling with loads recently (trying and failing to form more female friendships), and wow. I completely relate to this article.

I'm also trying to get the point of accepting it because it is so soul destroying putting yourself out there and not getting much in return time and time again, and always being on the outskirts of group things and thinking its something like my personality e.g. I am boring or too 'nice'?

Does anyone else relate?

I’ve done those things with friends but also travel, dog walks, pints in a pub, celebrating 21sts in student houses in crap fancy dress, then 3 decades later celebrating 50s, camping with young kids, talking politics, supporting each other, talking about Netflix, going to gigs, occasionally shopping, mainly drinking and eating loads. It’s been loads of fun. At some point, if you’ve had friendships for decades they tip into shared history and understanding.

And I’ve got a PhD, like hipster coffee and art house cinema.

I want to be friends with this woman 🥂🍾 Tired of even ‘friendship’ being sold to us as a product or model to aspire to.

Yeah, I relate to that. It's a mixture of not feeling like I 'click' with many people and general social awkwardness that makes me fear I'm annoying and people will find it weird and trying to hard if I make overtures towards them as a friend. Also, annoyingly, when I do meet people I seem to click with they always turn out to live on the other side of London or somewhere miles away, so a low-pressure casual friendship or popping out for coffee isn't an option.

At school most of my friends were boys - not because I was 'one of lads' or a pick me, it was the weird, geeky and queer guys. I tended and still tend to be friends with people because they're someone I have fun with rather than because they're necessarily the best, most wonderful people (though some are) or because we are soulmates. I've never had a close, confiding friendship with anyone.

I never made any 'mum friends', I went to a few groups but could never get beyond a few pleasantries and I wasn't around at school enough to particularly make friends. I've never made work friends, though I've vaguely kept in touch with a few people - when I'm in an office for some reason I like to spend my lunchtimes on my own, although I do enjoy after work drinks and occasional lunches with team very much.

My husband is much more of a friend-maker and I guess he kind of compensates.

To be clear, I don't think I'm better than other people, nor that they are boring and I'm interesting, but I sympathise with the article writer that it can be tricky when you're just not into the same things that most people are into. People can be arsey and superior about it, but you don't have to be that way - I think I was a bit like that in my teens and 20s before I got a bit more self-aware. Doesn't mean one thinks those things are shallow, stupid or boring, they just don't interest you and you can't have a conversation about them, especially when in a context when most people assume you will be able to relate to them,

This is exactly me. And I'm someone who really was odd as a child and didn't fit in with the kids at primary school. But at secondary school I found a best friend (who is still my best friend now) then we found a group of like minded friends (who we are still friends with now although we live all over the world) then I met more friends at university a couple stuck, more in my 20s, a couple stuck, more from school mums, a group stuck.... they all just organically came about really. I have about 15-20 good women friends now who are amazing in their own right, who I would drop everything for if they ever needed me and who I know would do the same for me. Women friends are the bomb imo.

I feel as if making friends is something learned in childhood, and if that process is disrupted it can have lifelong impacts. I certainly failed to make firm friends (moved a lot) as a child. That’s not to say I couldn’t or didn’t but that moving meant they didn’t last and I didn’t learn how to foster long relationships.
So I think the article does summarise that feeling of being ‘other’ from what is a very mainstream idea; groups of women being friends.

I'm very lucky that I'm in a friendship group of Bucks Fizz fans (the drink and the making your mind up kind!) but

Ah, but are they also mallard spotters? Because it's one thing making your mind up, but you also need to have your ducks in a row.

I think you need compatibility with friends but it's more subtle than both of you liking Big Brother or bucks fizz.

@AlpineMuesli my parents didn’t have friends. My mum was poorly a lot growing up so I never witnessed them making friends. I think that might have impacted me because I also have no idea how to. I’m sure my mum is ND also. Even before she was unwell she was unable to make friends. She says the most wrong and awkward things still, I cringe like mum no that’s something you keep in your head.

I've never sought out nor had a female friendship group for the reasons some others have said.

I've never experienced the Queen Bee / power dynamics you describe. That would make it really stressful, and not a friendship group.

Sadly, I have. Twice.

I had never heard of the term Queen Bee beforehand but it was a nightmare at the time and she ended up not hiding the fact she was trying to "run [me] out of town," socially at least, for not falling in line. I was in my early 40s at the time and was completely blindsided by it.

I haven't read the article but the first poster mocked the author for their "quirky" interests. I agree the writer should find people they share interests with but I disagree that the fault lies with the fact she isn't interested in talking about BGT or whatever.

I don't watch TV very often. I find a lot of it dull. I have no idea what programmes are on currently but I do know that people talk about what's on TV. I've tried watching stuff to join in but I just couldn't do it.

I'd far rather debate politics (within my own areas of interest), discuss literature, gardening or the few films I do watch.

It's not my profession but I play socially in a couple of bands. I go and see a lot of bands. This is where my main interest lies and I've met loads of people through it. A few have become friends most are just varying degrees of acquaintance. I'm happy with that. We all share an interest. But I think a lot of people would have no interest in that either and think our conversations boring.

I do think a lot of people with more 'mainstream' interests find it easier to make friends (and there's nothing wrong with having 'mainstream' interests) because it's easier to find people you share interests with.

But there's also nothing wrong with having more specific interests either. These aren't something I've developed to be "quirky" - I've been involved in all kinds of music over the years ranging from singing in choirs to playing in a classical orchestra, a folk duo and punk bands. And I've met a diverse range of people through all. Some have stuck to varying degrees and some haven't. But I've been doing it since I was about 16.

I have other hobbies/interests too but nothing has held my interest in the same way for over 30 years.

I've met a few women along the way who I've become close to but because our friendships haven't been long standing, when other life pressures come along (grandchildren/elderly parents) those are the ones who fall by the wayside because they have different priorities to me and longer standing friends at similar life stages.

Nowadays, I'm less bothered tbh.

I don't get the obsession with having a gaggle of female friends but I went to an all girls boarding school so experienced how awful females can be.

I'm friends with people I click with (male or female). In fact it was a male friend who helped keep me busy after I split from my ex. My best friend is male and we just clicked. I do have female friends but it's nothing like the groups of female friends I see on TV or films.

I find people much easier when it's one on one, I'm always on the edge of groups and find them absolutely exhausting.

I completely agree.

I think a lot of people assume that you think you are better than them though when your interests are different though. And that can cause difficulties.

Some of the comments on this and similar MN threads show that.

Ha, same here.

I suspect there are a lot of us who are similar. Our paths just don't cross!

I do think female friendships are different to male or male/female ones.

That's not because I'm "not like other girls" but female friendships are often more nuanced, deeper and often more familial in nature than male friendships which are often more superficial and 'easier', which is also often easier for women who don't find social situations easy.

There are so many threads on MN about unhealthy female friendship dynamics - people pleasing, differing expectations, people feeling wronged and just tolerating or quietly seething to keep the peace rather than sorting things out. I think a lot of people struggle.

Women might be in friendship groups but ime they have a best/good friend and go together to theatre/ art gallery / craft class - if you don’t have that one friend it means going on your own - I do do that but can feel like billy no mates.

"In reality, I’m a lot more like the characters in the European arthouse films I like to watch (on my own) than the Hollywood fare I grew up on. When I see family and friends post pictures of baby showers, hen parties and birthday celebrations, I wonder why my own camera reel looks so radically different. Scroll through my social media and you will find shots of speciality coffee, documentaries about human rights abuses and the auditoriums of old theatres."

This reads as undisguised 'I'm so much cleverer and cooler than everyone else'.

And 'family and friends' - are these the friends she's writing about not having?

I don't have friends, but that's because I'm boring.

There are lots of people who would prefer to discuss her topics than your chosen ones. I’m not sure your categorisation is helpful. If what you are saying is seek out others who enjoy the same things as you then I do agree with that.

There are lots of people who would prefer to discuss her topics than your chosen ones.

...and if her colleagues had been those people, that article wouldn't have been written so evidently her colleagues weren't those people.

I put those topics as examples of things people natter about at work. Maybe people in offices do have lengthy discussions about the deep state, American politics, the Roman empire and Lithuanian pottery from the 9th century, good on em if they do, I've never heard it.
I think most casual work chats are about TV shows, weather, holiday plans and other such light 'stuff'

More,
"Did you see Corrie last night?"
Than,
"Let's compare tilt shifted black and white photos of empty Victorian Theatres and then go for £16 coffee at that place that uses the coffee vaporising brewing method."

The writer seems to think she's the only woman who has artistic and intellectual interests and that real friendships cannot survive promotion at work? She seems to have injected a strange defensive/ competitive element. It would be interesting to know whether that's been the issue all along or a retrospective face saving explanation.

The expectation of a ready made group of friends popping up with every job, baby group, house move makes no sense. Good friends are people collected across years, not shopped for all at once with a bit of strategic pretending, organising and small talk. That's getting by socially and situationally, not nurturing a close connection built of common ground. I personally find those rare and have about 12. Mostly met separately. I adore bringing them together but it's not that often.

It's hopefully just a bollocks puff article churned out to pay the gas bill

I agree. I had friends at school until I was about 9. A new girl arrived and I befriended her, but then she suddenly turned against me and turned others against me too by spreading lies. And then I had no one and felt like the ‘other’. I spent break times on my own, watching the other children play together wondering what was so wrong with me, that I must be unlikeable.

I’ve been able to see it for what it was for a long time now, but I still can’t shake the feeling of being Other, on the outside looking in. I feel anxious socially and assume people won’t like me.

I do have friends but very few locally, and I think I hold myself back a lot for fear of revealing parts of myself people won’t like. I made a new local friend last year whose company I really enjoyed, but I haven’t heard from him for over a month so can’t help but assume he’s realised I’m unlikeable, even though I know it’s probably at least partly due to him meeting his new gf. It still stings though.

Regarding the article author, I actually had a friend like that who I stepped back from. She was also into art house and activism and seemed to think this made her very unusual. She once told me she dreaded having to talk to women because she wasn’t interested in clothes or men, and as time went on there were other misogynistic slips. Making out you’re different in a way that makes you superior to others is not an attractive trait, no matter how you dress it up.

Nobody's a mallard spotter. You need to be into more interesting ducks like shoveler or pochard IMHO. Smew, if you're really hard-core.
🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆

I'd be interested how us 'weird' people's kids are doing socially?

DH used to worry terribly at primary school that our kids didn't have enough friends and enough playdates and I took that attitude that they didn't have loads, but not none either, and neither was reliant on just one friend, they each had 2 close friends and another 2 or 3 close-ish friends. No, they weren't the kids invited to every party once kids stopped having full class dos, but they went to a few.

Our teen (interestingly assigned girl, now IDs non-binary) always had a decent set of friends at primary and changed schools and has been far more successful socially then DH or I at that age, though they insist they are 'weird and awkward'. and we are, once I'm employed again, looking into diagnosis for being neurodiverse in some way. DS, 12, has ADHD and is not very mature so I did worry about secondary, but he has found a crew of 5 or 6 kids at school and he's also been good at making friends from summer camps or Scouts, so his best friend has actually never been at the same school as him. So they seem to be doing OK despite us.

I had a great time with friends by second half of secondary, but it took me 3 years to find my 'crowd'. I'm still friends with 4 of them.

@Catlord I agree with you absolutely. Throughout my whole career I have encountered office politics, backstabbing, sharp elbows and some horrible colleagues to be quite frank about it. I do not and never have had friends at work, but there are people I have worked with whom I have liked very much and vice versa, but our friendships have developed after one or other of us left and we are really very good friends, and our former shared workplace isn't even alluded to now.

I'm sociable at work, I go to Christmas parties and leaving parties etc, and I have some really fabulous colleagues that I am very thankful for. But I find it almost impossible to trust anyone in the workplace because of things that I have experienced and seen happen to others over the years.

For this reason I prefer not to have work friendships. Other (real, not situational) friends have been met through university (graduated 2003/4), book clubs, hobby groups, friends of friends, sports etc but none of these are "groups".

I did spend that article wondering how on earth she couldn't find her tribe more easily. She sounds like half my friendship group. I'd bet money that she's within 2 degrees of separation of me.

It was obvious to me from the age of 12 (if not earlier) that I wasn't cut out for friendship with the type of girls/women who were popular at school, but as an adult I solved that by moving to a city and getting involved in the counterculture arthouse scene, which was easy even for an awkward 21yo with bad social skills. Have since had an enjoyable social life full of weird architecture photos and human rights documentaries.

What I suspect is that the author also did this but motherhood has catapulted her back into a more mainstream social circle again. When you've got used to bonding with people over arthouse cinema and human rights, it can be quite jarring to be in a social group that doesn't give a shit about those, and realise you're as unable to bond with them as you were in school. Some of my friends who've become mothers have said that they feel like this on school runs and at NCT groups.

(The twist in my tale is that getting more involved with fitness and sport seems to have given me another social circle full of... the girls who were obviously popular and sporty at school. They're very nice! I didn't see that coming in my life.)