This wasn’t assault so why do I feel so violated?

[Emptycups]

TRIGGER WARNING- Mention of sexual abuse later in post

I can’t believe I’m still going over an incident that happened a few days ago and how much it’s upset me. I don’t understand why it’s upset me this much because I blame myself for it because of my frustrating, passive, non-assertive personality that’s got me into trouble so much all my life.

Sorry that this is long!!

I help my mum at her home a few days a week since she developed health issues, but I don’t drive so have to get a bus there and back but sometimes do stay over.

It’s the same number bus but different drivers each time usually and they’re all very nice or neutral usually. The bus journey is about 45 minutes.

I saw her Saturday and got the bus home that evening, and as I got on, the driver had a weird vibe and I felt intimidated. It’s hard to articulate but it just felt “off”. There was a problem with my card when paying so I had to wait while he tried it again which took a few minutes and he made a couple of flirty remarks. I just laughed them off awkwardly. This sounds horrible but I’ve experienced it a few times before, and I know when I see it- he had “pervy eyes”, like he was glaring at me and fancied me and didn’t break contact. There were a few people sitting downstairs and I went upstairs as I usually do because it’s quieter and I was exhausted.

I looked out the window about ten minutes later and saw a woman about my age (42) get on. I heard the driver talking to her, just general stuff at first but then he asked if she was married and she said no. They carried on chatting then he said “So how come you’re not married then?” And she said it had never happened for her etc.

She got off the bus when we were about halfway back and we started to go through a very rural, secluded area of the journey. Everything was so quiet by now, and then the driver stopped and turned the engine off. I wondered what he was doing and then I heard him open his door and slowly coming up the stairs. I felt my heart racing a bit and he stood next to me and said he was just seeing who was left on the bus now. I felt vulnerable and a bit scared. He then said “Are you coming down for a chat?” and I said no I’d rather stay up here as I’m very tired.

This is when my stupid nature kicked in and I felt I SHOULD go and talk to him because I’d been a bit rude before. So I went downstairs about 5 mins before my stop. I stood next to him near the front and he asked what I’d been up to so I told him I’d been at my mums. He then asked if I’m married and I replied yes, for over 20 years. I asked if he is and he said yes but that they have an open marriage. I said that’s fair enough , it’s not my thing but each to their own. He started telling me about various flings he’s had, and his wife too and how he’s on dating sites.

I said oh that’s great if you’re both ok with it and casually said that my friend is in an open marriage (which is true) and he seemed really enthusiastic and keen then. By this point we were at my stop but he hadn’t opened the doors yet. He said it’s great to chat to someone so open minded like me who “gets” it, and that he wouldn’t dare talk like this to anyone unless they’re “well over 40, like you”, which actually upset me because I worry all the time that I look older than I am. And he just assumed I’m well over 40! I’d never say that to someone.

He asked for my friend’s number and I said no, and I lied that she and her husband live over 300 miles away anyway. He said that’s no problem, he’ll travel anywhere and wanted details about what they do. He then went into graphic detail about the types of things “cuckold men” do and it was disgusting. He told me about a woman on the dating app who sent him nudes and described them in vulgar detail. I’m nowhere near a prude but hearing him talk like this made me feel ill.

I said I’d better go and he opened the door but said can you give your friend my number? I said ok because I didn’t want to appear rude!!! (What is wrong with me?) and he wrote it on a bit of paper. He said tell her I’m a 7, or an 8 out of 10, that I’m 54 and I’ll travel anywhere. He then asked if I agreed on his score and stared at me with those eyes which creeped me out. I just said I don’t like rating people.

He then repeated that he’s glad I was on the bus as he’d never be able to talk so openly to any young women and wouldn’t go near them or they put in a complaint. He repeated again he only chats like this to women who are WAY over 40 like me 😒

I gave him zero signals that I wanted to talk like this, but I’m a very friendly, chatty, empathic person, and so many men mistake this for flirting.

I got off the bus and haven’t passed on his number and won’t be! It’s upset me so much though and reminded me of things in my past. I’ve been sexually abused by family members, family friends, strangers in the street, a boy at school, an old boss…so many men have invaded me physically and emotionally over the years. It’s me, I give off an invitation I think, and I can’t help myself. I can’t be rude to people and always feel guilty if I try. I have very good listening skills and men seem to read that completely wrong - only ever older men though.

Anyway I cant stop ruminating over all this, so had to try to write it down.

I’m so sorry this happened to you @Emptycups
He is a disgusting old pervert abusing his power and it is 100% nothing that you did wrong at all.
I guess it would be difficult to report him as you might run into him again on the same bus route. That is what he is relying on. I’d like to cut his nuts off and stick them in his filthy mouth.

You rightly feel violated because this man engaged you in unwanted sexual talk.
This is sexual harassment.
I would also class this as a criminal offence, as he was intentionally causing you distress and alarm. Stopping the bloody bus on a deserted road, indeed. What a bastard.

Please have a look at this, from Rape Crisis:
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/types-of-sexual-violence/what-is-sexual-harassment/

I am sorry this happened to you and I hope that you will be able to cope with the violation and disquiet you are feeling, now that you have confirmed that this is what that was.

Perhaps it would help to call Rape Crisis or Women's Aid to talk it through.

You may in the end feel able either to make a complaint about this man to his workplace, or to the Police.

Well he has actually advised you of what you should do next. Do put in a complaint to the bus company. Why should anybody over 40 put up with this any more than someone younger? The answer may be thst he knows the younger generation of females whold be highly unlikely to put up with this creepy crap. Happily women know their rights these days, are better educated about what is acceptable and w hat is not.
You do have the power to stop men like him from doing it to someone else. Exercise that power, and some good may come out of the situation. Do you know if there was CCTV on the bus? It would be hard for him to explain away stopping the bus and going upstairs to approach a woman on her own, that gives a complaint more credence than a 'he said/she said' scenario.

OP this sounds truly awful for you, I hope you are OK. Everything was really wrong about what he did and said.
I'd say report it to the police, they should stop this happening. They might even offer you some victim support.
I totally identify with being kind and not wanting to hurt people and then ending up feeling compromised. You did nothing wrong.
Maybe the nurse at your GP might be a good place to go for advice, as you're struggling. Xx

I'd be reporting him to the bus company and the police. Totally unacceptable predatory behaviour. Unbelievable really.

Hmm.

OP not understanding why it upset her is odd.

Is this real OP? Or some complicated reverse type thing?

First of all “negging” you (the well over 40 thing) was a pick up technique. Men who use that learned it from “the pick up artist” or that sort of ilk, and they haven’t yet realized this isn’t 1990 anymore, and we’ve caught on, and it won’t work. (I can’t be arsed to describe what it is or how it works, since it fcking doesn’t work, but the idea these idiots have in their heads is that a beautiful woman is so used to compliments, if they insult her in a seemingly unintentional way, her poor self esteem will have her try to “fix” things and constantly need their fcking approval. It’s emotional abuse.)

second: describing things to you in detail is sexual harassment.

third: you need to MAKE yourself get comfortable with making a scene, being “rude,” saying “no.” This could have gone even worse than it did. This is how assaults begin. I am sorry to sound so alarmist, but predators DO try to find the ones who are afraid to be rude. They try to find the ones who will basically apologise for a man’s bad behavior toward them.

there is a reason your brain keeps going over and over it. Your feelings are a signal to you, that this was VERY unacceptable. He’s working for the city, driving a bus, is he not?

he should be reported for using that as a way to prey on women.

Not odd at all - some people have been so downtrodden and emotionally abused, they get to the point where they question why they’re bothered by things… I’ve been there … I spent most of my growing up years being told “it’s not that bad, you’re just sensitive,” and believing it.

many years of therapy later, I can see how I tried so hard to not make scenes and be polite (even about r*pe and SA), I allowed that gaslighting to make me question myself. That is what gaslighting is FOR.

troll hunting OP is not only rude and heartless, it’s against the site’s regulations.

Well if it's exactly as written, then OFC the victim of the incident must report it.

This horrible man has relied on your innate desire to be polite and not make a fuss. He has deliberately tested what you thought reasonable and then pushed it further and further. You were questioning yourself, by the time you decided he was definitely being inappropriate you were already involved in conversation. Well he was out of order when he came upstairs. You could report him to the bus company for that alone (all our buses have CCTV), as well as the sexual harassment.

You are not to blame for people who have treated you badly and sometimes we put up with certain behaviours from fear of provoking worse. You need to allow yourself to be angry and risk someone saying you're rude when you won't engage with them. Trust your own judgement, you don't owe politeness to creeps and abusers who are counting on your silence. Talk to some people you trust and role play situations where you effectively say "Piss off" to inappropriate behaviour.

Definitely complain, the guy is a disgusting perv, its a pick up technique. If you happen to be on his bus again and he starts, refuse to engage and I'd ring someone and ask them to meet you at your stop, or failing that if you feel off again ring the police. Trust your instinct, it's their for a reason.

Police? His behaviour was inappropriate and unprofessional but it wasn't criminal!

What crime do you think he committed?

From Rape Crisis: Sexual harassment is any unwanted sexual behaviour that makes someone feel upset, scared, offended or humiliated, or is meant to make them feel that way.

It is also when someone carries out this behaviour with the intention of making someone else feel that way. This means that it can still be sexual harassment even if the other person didn’t feel upset, scared, offended or humiliated.

If someone carries out sexual harassment behaviours on more than one occasion that are intended to cause another person alarm or distress, they may be committing the crime of harassment.

I would be reporting it to both the bus company and the police - so the police can see if he's done this before/next time there's a record.

He obviously sizes vulnerable women up and is careful. It's not unusual for women to react like the OP, blame themselves or minimise and therefore not report. That's how creeps like this get away with it.

Ok report it to police and see where you get to 🙄

Oh for gods sake!! Again, for the millionth time - fawning (the innate drive to be polite, and 'make friends') is a perfectly valid threat response (along with freeze, flight or fight - loads of people think they would fight, most don't - it's rarely the threat response that would help you survive) . It is very very common. It is normal. It often helps us women survive in threat situations when we can't fight back. With a background of sexual trauma, it is perfectly normal to respond in this way. OP did nothing wrong but here we go with the blaming women narrative again.

OP it was sexual harassment- you did nothing wrong.

Sometimes it's not about where you immediately 'get to'. I doubt it's the first time he's done this, but it might be the first time it's been reported. But the next victim might report it too - and then you have a pattern, and then a case can be built against him.

One thing is for sure, if she doesn't report it she'll 'get' nowhere anyway. Do you over ever do things for immediate gratification?

I can’t say he’s completely to blame.

You went downstairs to purposely talk to him 5 minutes before your stop when you didn’t have to.

You divulged about your friend for some bizarre reason and then you agreed to take his number. I wouldn’t call that zero signals. It sounded like you were trying to make convo along the same lines as him. He probably thought you were more open that you are as you engaged in the same convo.

Next time just stick with your no and get off at your stop.

I wouldn't sit upstairs on a bus if it was going through secluded areas. Checking if their are passengers is quite a normal thing to do ime. The sexual + shouldn't have happened but I'd not have responded in any way, amd certainly not taken his number. By talking about your " friend" I'd have taken it as being code for you.
As buses have cctv I would definitely make a complaint. The cctv will.back you up if he wasn't supposed to have you stood talking to him for eg.

I think it is worthy of a police report. He sounds like an extremely dangerous man.

He stopped the bus in a secluded area and came upstairs and intimidated the OP.

He told her graphically sexual stories while holding her captive.

I would imagine that he is already known to the police and I think that they would take this seriously, as he isin contact with multiplewomen and girls daily..

I'm not surprised you feel like you do. Sounds like a very frightening experience. He does not need to stop the bus to see who's on there.

A dangerous, predatory man, and your 'fawn' response understandable. He does need to be stopped as this won't be a first or a last. I hope you can feel able to report his behaviour. Well done for getting out of a dangerous situation.

I gave him zero signals that I wanted to talk like this, but I’m a very friendly, chatty, empathic person, and so many men mistake this for flirting

You ignored every single one of your instincts about this man because you didn't want to he seen as rude.

You didn't like the way he spoke to you or another woman. Nor the way he looked at you. You engaged in a conversation with him despite not wanting to. You remained I the conversation and told him personal details about yourself and your friend including taking his number to give to her (?!) and you were willing to engage in a conversation of a sexual nature with him (open marriqges), albeit not one you expected to become so explicit.

You didn't give him zero signs at all. He was utterly inappropriate and you need to report him but, tbh, all.the signs were there and you ignored them.

He stopped the bus in a secluded area and came upstairs and intimidated the OP.

He told her graphically sexual stories while holding her captive.

He went downstairs. He wouldn't have been able to do this of she hadn't felt rude and gone downstairs to talk to him.

Tbh, if someone asked if I were married, I'd tell them it was none of their business and ignored them. I wouldn't feel pressured into seeking them out for a conversation when they'd already made me feel uncomfortable.