This wasn’t assault so why do I feel so violated?

[Emptycups]

TRIGGER WARNING- Mention of sexual abuse later in post

I can’t believe I’m still going over an incident that happened a few days ago and how much it’s upset me. I don’t understand why it’s upset me this much because I blame myself for it because of my frustrating, passive, non-assertive personality that’s got me into trouble so much all my life.

Sorry that this is long!!

I help my mum at her home a few days a week since she developed health issues, but I don’t drive so have to get a bus there and back but sometimes do stay over.

It’s the same number bus but different drivers each time usually and they’re all very nice or neutral usually. The bus journey is about 45 minutes.

I saw her Saturday and got the bus home that evening, and as I got on, the driver had a weird vibe and I felt intimidated. It’s hard to articulate but it just felt “off”. There was a problem with my card when paying so I had to wait while he tried it again which took a few minutes and he made a couple of flirty remarks. I just laughed them off awkwardly. This sounds horrible but I’ve experienced it a few times before, and I know when I see it- he had “pervy eyes”, like he was glaring at me and fancied me and didn’t break contact. There were a few people sitting downstairs and I went upstairs as I usually do because it’s quieter and I was exhausted.

I looked out the window about ten minutes later and saw a woman about my age (42) get on. I heard the driver talking to her, just general stuff at first but then he asked if she was married and she said no. They carried on chatting then he said “So how come you’re not married then?” And she said it had never happened for her etc.

She got off the bus when we were about halfway back and we started to go through a very rural, secluded area of the journey. Everything was so quiet by now, and then the driver stopped and turned the engine off. I wondered what he was doing and then I heard him open his door and slowly coming up the stairs. I felt my heart racing a bit and he stood next to me and said he was just seeing who was left on the bus now. I felt vulnerable and a bit scared. He then said “Are you coming down for a chat?” and I said no I’d rather stay up here as I’m very tired.

This is when my stupid nature kicked in and I felt I SHOULD go and talk to him because I’d been a bit rude before. So I went downstairs about 5 mins before my stop. I stood next to him near the front and he asked what I’d been up to so I told him I’d been at my mums. He then asked if I’m married and I replied yes, for over 20 years. I asked if he is and he said yes but that they have an open marriage. I said that’s fair enough , it’s not my thing but each to their own. He started telling me about various flings he’s had, and his wife too and how he’s on dating sites.

I said oh that’s great if you’re both ok with it and casually said that my friend is in an open marriage (which is true) and he seemed really enthusiastic and keen then. By this point we were at my stop but he hadn’t opened the doors yet. He said it’s great to chat to someone so open minded like me who “gets” it, and that he wouldn’t dare talk like this to anyone unless they’re “well over 40, like you”, which actually upset me because I worry all the time that I look older than I am. And he just assumed I’m well over 40! I’d never say that to someone.

He asked for my friend’s number and I said no, and I lied that she and her husband live over 300 miles away anyway. He said that’s no problem, he’ll travel anywhere and wanted details about what they do. He then went into graphic detail about the types of things “cuckold men” do and it was disgusting. He told me about a woman on the dating app who sent him nudes and described them in vulgar detail. I’m nowhere near a prude but hearing him talk like this made me feel ill.

I said I’d better go and he opened the door but said can you give your friend my number? I said ok because I didn’t want to appear rude!!! (What is wrong with me?) and he wrote it on a bit of paper. He said tell her I’m a 7, or an 8 out of 10, that I’m 54 and I’ll travel anywhere. He then asked if I agreed on his score and stared at me with those eyes which creeped me out. I just said I don’t like rating people.

He then repeated that he’s glad I was on the bus as he’d never be able to talk so openly to any young women and wouldn’t go near them or they put in a complaint. He repeated again he only chats like this to women who are WAY over 40 like me 😒

I gave him zero signals that I wanted to talk like this, but I’m a very friendly, chatty, empathic person, and so many men mistake this for flirting.

I got off the bus and haven’t passed on his number and won’t be! It’s upset me so much though and reminded me of things in my past. I’ve been sexually abused by family members, family friends, strangers in the street, a boy at school, an old boss…so many men have invaded me physically and emotionally over the years. It’s me, I give off an invitation I think, and I can’t help myself. I can’t be rude to people and always feel guilty if I try. I have very good listening skills and men seem to read that completely wrong - only ever older men though.

Anyway I cant stop ruminating over all this, so had to try to write it down.

Surely how it played out is the best outcome as now his unacceptable behaviour will be called out in his workplace. Should this man be working as a driver on near empty busses at night? The shark as you called him might be held to account and think twice about repeating his awful behaviour.

Report him to the bus company and the police. Do it officially through the company’s complaints process. He’s a sexual predator and needs to be sacked.

LEARN WHAT TRAUMA DOES TO PEOPLE.

I'm well.aware of what trauma does to people.

That's why people need to learn alternative responses.

Constantly telling the OP what she did was right isn't going to help her because, in this situation, it wasn't.

kkloo

I agree that no one knows what he might have done next. But we do know what he did. And that was to leave the OP alone when she said she didn't want to talk to him.

Yes, he was a creep; yes, questioning female passengers on their marital status was inappropriate; and yes, he made the OP feel uncomfortable when he went upstairs. No one really knows why he did that. Maybe to intimidate, maybe to check how many passengers were left. Who knows.

What happened was she intentionally approached him and initiated a conversation with him in spite of the fact she felt uneasy arpund him. Even though he had LEFT HER ALONE by that point. There is absolutely nothing in anything she said to suggest she needed to do that. He had left her alone, he had gone downstairs and he had continued driving the bus.

Once that conversation had been initiated, she didn't really have much choice but to go along with it as it unfolded but if she hadn't gone downstairs before her stop and started chatting to him, that conversation couldn't have taken place.

If she'd stayed where she was, he'd have driven the bus, she'd have got off at her stop and that would have been the end of it.

And it's OK to tell her that.

The door was already open for the shark.
She was still stuck in the cage with the shark at that point.

Not quite.

The shark had realised she wasn't going to engage with him when she said she didn't want to talk. The bars of her shark cage kept him out and then she opened the cage herself.

The shark cage is a metaphor for her personal boundaries which she asserted and it worked but which she then ignored herself because she didn't want to he mean.

She had actually done everything right and it had worked.

I would have gone down 5 mins early to make sure he was going to stop and let me off. I pick my nose in response to being preyed upon after I felt it worked for me once. I was on a bus dark winter night crying silently over bad news (parents health) mascara streaming having been diverted on a rail replacement trying to get to a friend. Bus emptied out (single decker) and a man started by asking me directions and then trying to force a conversation, moving closer to my seat. I was 37 knew I looked like a vulnerable wreck and had to get off the bus soon and didn’t want him to follow me. I Remember thinking I thought wow shit I look repulsive why is he hitting on me and then clicking this is like a beacon to a predator - I looked vulnerable so the next question he asked I “absent mindedly” picked my nose and watched him look physically repulsed. He Got off the next stop. So relieved. I wouldn’t have had the guts in my 20s and wouldn’t work for every situation but I would pick again under similar pressure and have - cuts conversations with strange inquisitive men short effortlessly.

@GreyCarpet

If she'd stayed where she was, he'd have driven the bus, she'd have got off at her stop and that would have been the end of it.

Absolutely no way of knowing that. The man was a complete weirdo so there's no way of knowing how it would have played out

What she needs to hear is that it was ok to say no, she wasn't coming downstairs because she didn't want to talk.

That that wasn't mean or unkind and that she doesn't owe random men anything.

Yes, being on a bus makes her more vulnerable but he had left her alone.

There are people on here telling her repeatedly that what she did was normal and right and I'm pretty sure not a single one of them would approach a man who made them feel uncomfortable of their own volition, after he had already left them alone, to engage him in a conversation.

And she needs to hear that, if she does find herself in an uncomfortable conversation, it's OK to give neutral non committal 'polite' responses and not feel the need to share information she wouldnt normally feel comfortable sharing.

She thought that it was because she didn't want to be mean, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's what her body was telling her.

You're right. But what she did was engage him in a conversation that was a hell of a lot worse than anything that had happened to that point. And that applies to anyone in any situation.

If he were a wrong 'un, then that conversation wouldn't have stopped him from doing anything, would it? She initiated it. Not him.

I've posted on here before that I was raped by a man who climbed through my open ground floor bedroom window many years ago. So I am well aware that if a man intends you harm, there is nothing you can do to encourage or prevent it. But once a man who makes you feel uncomfortable has left you alone, you damn well leave yourself left alone!

But hebhad left her alone. He had retreated. He had carried on driving the bus on the appropriate route.

If someone makes you uncomfortable but then leaves ypu alone, ypu don't then make the move to engage them yourself.

And it's OK to tell her that.

Of course it was ok to say no that she didn't want to talk.
But what you're telling her is that if she had did that then nothing bad would have happened. She would have got off the bus and saved herself from all of that.

There are people on here telling her repeatedly that what she did was normal and right and I'm pretty sure not a single one of them would approach a man who made them feel uncomfortable of their own volition, after he had already left them alone, to engage him in a conversation.

I'm pretty sure that loads of them actually would approach the man who made the uncomfortable.....look at stories of sexual assault or rape etc. The victim is often asked why did she do that or go back or put herself in harms way when he had already made her uncomfortable. The answer is often 'I don't know' or perhaps sometimes it's that they felt like they were being mean.

It is absolutely fine to tell her it's ok to not engage, but again, what you're telling her is that if she had stayed upstairs and got off at her stop then nothing else would have happened.

That's victim blaming.

Yeah except that's not what you're telling her, you're telling her the danger was over and she then went and brought the rest of it on herself and that that would never have happened except for her actions.

And you don't know that. He's clearly a dangerous freak (and I hate using that word to describe people).

I'm sorry op.
He knew what he was doing, men like this always do. Your reaction, particularly given your history, was very normal - we try to appease and calm to try to buy time and prevent escalation.
Please follow your mum's advice and report. Don't take that bus again, if you have to be there late stay over until the dust has settled. Stay safe.

I haven't actually said once that he wouldn't have done anything.

What I've said is that there was nothing in his behaviour at that point that suggested he would because she asserted a boundary and he had left her alone. If he hadn't left her alone and had been persistent then I wouldn't be saying this.

She said herself she does it with women too as well as other men. Obviously, that is a trauma response. We all know that but her response was an established pattern of behaviour. And she can change that.

No one has said she deserved it. No one has said she caused him to behave like that.

All I have actually said is that she didn't need to go downstairs and start a conversation with him.

Rather than addressing the only 2 important points in this post 1) A sexual predator is using his job to prey on women 2).He needs to be stopped, you are determined to find fault with the op. Why???

Your posts are a depressing reminder of why rapes go unreported and the conviction rate is so low.

Do you not see that in asking women to adjust their behaviours and act in ways designed to counter potential male threat that you’ve got this the wrong way round. We should be asking men to modify their behaviours so that, over time, the risk of assault, rape etc is reduced.

I would report this to the bus company with as much detail about him as you can remember.

It’s awful that some of you are debating what the OP should or shouldn’t have done. Cop yourselves on! The only thing that matters here is that this bus driver was behaving g in a way that was predatory, abusive and completely unprofessional and should be sacked. He is clearly a menace to women and girls.

I’m so sorry this happened to you, OP. Please report him to the police and the bus company.

Do you not see that in asking women to adjust their behaviours and act in ways designed to counter potential male threat that you’ve got this the wrong way round. We should be asking men to modify their behaviours so that, over time, the risk of assault, rape etc is reduced.

This with BELLS ON. @Emptycups I'm so sorry this creepy fucking pervert thought that he was OK to do this to you. If you felt strong enough to report him then that would be amazing. You didn't do anything wrong, you tried your best to keep yourself safe when you were frightened and often this is when we are not thinking clearly. I hope that you are OK I really do.

You did actually.
You said

If she'd stayed where she was, he'd have driven the bus, she'd have got off at her stop and that would have been the end of it.

And it's OK to tell her that.

Also what do you mean that there was nothing in his behaviour that would have suggested he would. His behaviour was not normal. Going up to a lone female passenger and asking her did she want to go down for a chat? That's extremely bizarre behaviour and she had already got the off vibe from him when she got on the bus.

Yeah except that's not what you're telling her, you're telling her the danger was over and she then went and brought the rest of it on herself and that that would never have happened except for her actions.

The conversation wouldn't have happened of she hadn't started it. That's just a fact.

I also didn't tell her the danger was definitely over. I said that she shouldn't feel the need to initiate conversations with men who have previously made her uncomfortable once they have already left her alone.

Except that there's no guarantee she was in any danger. She felt threatened and she felt intimidated and both of those are perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. But it was the conversation that has left her feeling the way she does more than anything. Part of her discomfort will be because she is replaying the scenario and wondering if she did the right thing, if she caused it. He chose all the words that came put of his mouth himself. But she is responsible for the fact she chose to approach him and initiated a conversation with him.

No, she didn't cause him to start talking about open marriages and commenting on her physically and all the other arsehole comments he made. It wouldn't have stopped him thinking it or it being his belief system.

But other people are suggesting she did the right thing hy approaching him and initiating a conversation after he had left her alone and I disagree with that.

You don't have to agree with me.

As I stated in the previous post, you did say that. You said

If she'd stayed where she was, he'd have driven the bus, she'd have got off at her stop and that would have been the end of it.

And it's OK to tell her that.

....

Except that there's no guarantee she was in any danger.

She clearly was because he's a dangerous creep. And he knew his behaviour was wrong. He stated as much when he said he wouldn't talk like that to younger women because they'd put in a complaint. I guarantee he has been inappropriate with younger women, and they've probably complained about him in some capacity, maybe not on this particular job but I would put money on it.

I didn't say that was normal. I have repeatedly said that it was inappropriate and should be reported.

I said that, after she asserted her boundary, he left her alone. He returned to his seat, he drove the bus. He followed the correct route. She dropped her off at her stop.

So based upon the facts of the situation, he had retreated. There was nothing at that point to suggest she was in danger.

There was nothing to suggest he would have done anything else. She had managed the situation fine. Other people are suggesting that the reason she is safe is because she went downstairs and spoke to him.

It's just the fact that the conversation wouldn't have taken place if she hadn't gone downstairs and started talking to him because he was driving the bus and the conversation only took place because she went downstairs and started talking to him.

Even without that conversation, his behaviour would have been wrong and inappropriate and that is why you don't willingly engage the company and conversation of men you find inappropriate because, once it has started, you can't control it.

I'm not disputing anything you are sayijg about him or suggesting you are wrong in your assessment of him in any way and I completely agree that he should be reported and is potentially a danger.

But I dont think going downstairs and chatting to him was necessary. And the OP could have avoided the conversation had she allowed herself to be 'left alone'.

@GreyCarpet

There was nothing to suggest he would have done anything else

There is to me. He's a dangerous creep.

Even without that conversation, his behaviour would have been wrong and inappropriate and that is why you don't willingly engage the company and conversation of men you find inappropriate because, once it has started, you can't control it.

You also said something similar previously that Once that conversation had been initiated, she didn't really have much choice but to go along with it as it unfolded but if she hadn't gone downstairs before her stop and started chatting to him, that conversation couldn't have taken place.

That doesn't really follow your logic, why did she have no control at that point and have no choice but to continue on with the conversation as it unfolded?