This wasn’t assault so why do I feel so violated?

[Emptycups]

TRIGGER WARNING- Mention of sexual abuse later in post

I can’t believe I’m still going over an incident that happened a few days ago and how much it’s upset me. I don’t understand why it’s upset me this much because I blame myself for it because of my frustrating, passive, non-assertive personality that’s got me into trouble so much all my life.

Sorry that this is long!!

I help my mum at her home a few days a week since she developed health issues, but I don’t drive so have to get a bus there and back but sometimes do stay over.

It’s the same number bus but different drivers each time usually and they’re all very nice or neutral usually. The bus journey is about 45 minutes.

I saw her Saturday and got the bus home that evening, and as I got on, the driver had a weird vibe and I felt intimidated. It’s hard to articulate but it just felt “off”. There was a problem with my card when paying so I had to wait while he tried it again which took a few minutes and he made a couple of flirty remarks. I just laughed them off awkwardly. This sounds horrible but I’ve experienced it a few times before, and I know when I see it- he had “pervy eyes”, like he was glaring at me and fancied me and didn’t break contact. There were a few people sitting downstairs and I went upstairs as I usually do because it’s quieter and I was exhausted.

I looked out the window about ten minutes later and saw a woman about my age (42) get on. I heard the driver talking to her, just general stuff at first but then he asked if she was married and she said no. They carried on chatting then he said “So how come you’re not married then?” And she said it had never happened for her etc.

She got off the bus when we were about halfway back and we started to go through a very rural, secluded area of the journey. Everything was so quiet by now, and then the driver stopped and turned the engine off. I wondered what he was doing and then I heard him open his door and slowly coming up the stairs. I felt my heart racing a bit and he stood next to me and said he was just seeing who was left on the bus now. I felt vulnerable and a bit scared. He then said “Are you coming down for a chat?” and I said no I’d rather stay up here as I’m very tired.

This is when my stupid nature kicked in and I felt I SHOULD go and talk to him because I’d been a bit rude before. So I went downstairs about 5 mins before my stop. I stood next to him near the front and he asked what I’d been up to so I told him I’d been at my mums. He then asked if I’m married and I replied yes, for over 20 years. I asked if he is and he said yes but that they have an open marriage. I said that’s fair enough , it’s not my thing but each to their own. He started telling me about various flings he’s had, and his wife too and how he’s on dating sites.

I said oh that’s great if you’re both ok with it and casually said that my friend is in an open marriage (which is true) and he seemed really enthusiastic and keen then. By this point we were at my stop but he hadn’t opened the doors yet. He said it’s great to chat to someone so open minded like me who “gets” it, and that he wouldn’t dare talk like this to anyone unless they’re “well over 40, like you”, which actually upset me because I worry all the time that I look older than I am. And he just assumed I’m well over 40! I’d never say that to someone.

He asked for my friend’s number and I said no, and I lied that she and her husband live over 300 miles away anyway. He said that’s no problem, he’ll travel anywhere and wanted details about what they do. He then went into graphic detail about the types of things “cuckold men” do and it was disgusting. He told me about a woman on the dating app who sent him nudes and described them in vulgar detail. I’m nowhere near a prude but hearing him talk like this made me feel ill.

I said I’d better go and he opened the door but said can you give your friend my number? I said ok because I didn’t want to appear rude!!! (What is wrong with me?) and he wrote it on a bit of paper. He said tell her I’m a 7, or an 8 out of 10, that I’m 54 and I’ll travel anywhere. He then asked if I agreed on his score and stared at me with those eyes which creeped me out. I just said I don’t like rating people.

He then repeated that he’s glad I was on the bus as he’d never be able to talk so openly to any young women and wouldn’t go near them or they put in a complaint. He repeated again he only chats like this to women who are WAY over 40 like me 😒

I gave him zero signals that I wanted to talk like this, but I’m a very friendly, chatty, empathic person, and so many men mistake this for flirting.

I got off the bus and haven’t passed on his number and won’t be! It’s upset me so much though and reminded me of things in my past. I’ve been sexually abused by family members, family friends, strangers in the street, a boy at school, an old boss…so many men have invaded me physically and emotionally over the years. It’s me, I give off an invitation I think, and I can’t help myself. I can’t be rude to people and always feel guilty if I try. I have very good listening skills and men seem to read that completely wrong - only ever older men though.

Anyway I cant stop ruminating over all this, so had to try to write it down.

He was at work, OP wasn’t, can you wrap your head around the difference there, or does your dick pandering not allow it?

I would echo what a PP said, read The Gift of Fear.

Then report this man to his employer, it doesn’t matter that you went downstairs or that you didn't shut the conversation down, even if you were actively encouraging it (not suggesting that was the case at all)... He should not be asking for phone numbers, or asking if people are married or disclosing any details of his sex live, or trying to procure a shag while he's working - he's completely in the wrong here and that was incredibly inappropriate. What an absolute sleaze bag!

some of the replies on this thread are absolutely wild...!
This is completely unacceptable behaviour on the bus drivers part, you haven't invited in this conversation and there is nothing wrong with how you responded, you aren't to blame for someone else being a fucking creep and you were probably doing what you felt you had to do in order to escape that situation safely. You have made it very clear this man made you feel uncomfortable and the fact you have had previous experience of SA (I am so sorry to hear this) will have kicked in a reponse from you that you felt would keep you safe.
I would report the bus driver, its totally unprofessional for him to talk like that at work, this isn't someone you've bumped into and chatted to at the local pub, he's at his job!!! imagine going up to a customer in any scenario and talking graphically about your sex life! totally unacceptable.
report the bus driver, talk to your councillor about coping mechanisms and how to handle situations like that in future so you feep safe and empowered.
You also said you felt you invite in sexual assault, thats not true, you are not to blame for other peoples actions, please dont ever blame yourself for other people being abhorrent humans.

You recognised him as a predator and you played along until you were safe. You have done nothing wrong and he is a nasty piece of work.

You are upset thinking of what could of happened and blaming yourself when you did nothing wrong. You survived, this situation could have ended in a worse way.

If there is a way to confidentially report him then I would. No one should have to experience this encounter and it might provide some peace of mind for future bus journeys.

Your experience has upset me and reminded me of situations where I felt scared and helpless but the victims personality and demeanour is never to blame and this needs to brought into the light. We need to speak out about experiences like this so people feel open to share them so we can hopefully make them more unacceptable and less frequent. This man made his intentions clear and they were not good.

For the responders saying they would have rejected him and refused to go downstairs, well done for having the confidence and assertiveness to do this but sometimes it is too risky. She was alone on an empty bus in a remote area!!

The people defending him and making out that OP brought it on herself and it was some kind of a two way thing are fucked in the head and/or stuck in the dark ages.

He sounds like a dangerous scumbag.

Thanks so much for the replies, I’m so grateful and glad I wrote all this down. So sorry and sending hugs to anyone who has experienced assault in their lives, it really can scar us and affect how we see the world.

I remembered something else he said along with his comments about my age, and I know it’s trivial but it also upset me too! He said as well as younger women, he doesn’t go near these “skinny girls who are a size 8” and that he prefers women on the bigger side, while gesturing to me. I’m a couple of stone overweight and very insecure about it, so once again, something he may have thought was a compliment actually made me feel awful.

Anyway I’ve told my mum and sister who are both horrified and have been so supportive. They both encouraged me to report him and my mum’s said she’ll do it for me. She said she’ll phone on my behalf and say I told her all the details and that I don’t want to get him in trouble but that she’s very concerned. So that way hopefully when it gets back to him he’ll think that it was out of my hands.

Yes that may be cowardly but I’m once again thinking about my safety.

Those posters have to be either creepy men, or the type of women who think that women are to blame for men cheating and being sleazy because it's on women to shut men down so that they can't cheat or behave inappropriately.

There is no excuse for the appalling victim blaming and deliberately choosing to see this as not a big deal or something that wasn't a big deal.

I would have been petrified when he walked upstairs.

I guarantee he IS sleazy and intimidating to younger women even though he seemed to go out of his way to make out that he didn't and that he knew the OP would be cool with his behaviour.

Vile, disgusting pig!!

Yeah and I think women should be able to use public transport without fear of harassment or molestation. Regardless of whether they’ve done whatever “work” on themselves that you deign appropriate. How’s about expecting a male to not initiate sex chat whilst in his place of work

100 per cent this. No hesitation.

what a horrifying experience for you, I'm so glad your Mum and Sister get it and are on your side and are going to report him.

whatageareyou you clearly haven't read the OP's thread properly. When you have been abused unfortunately it often leaves you not being g capable of doing tge things that you've suggested . I have been in a similar situation twice and afterwards I was furious with myself but at tge time I hadn't the courage to tell them to shut tge f*ck up.

I think it's you who needs to gain some understanding here.

The amygdala, a part of the brain associated with emotional processing, plays a central role in fear response. It helps in processing and interpreting fear-related stimuli. When fear is triggered, the amygdala can override rational thinking, leading to emotionally-driven decisions rather than logical ones.
https://medium.com/@ruchirathor_23436/the-psychology-of-fear-understanding-its-impact-on-decision-making-f40788f40ab4#:~:text=The%20amygdala%2C%20a%20part%20of,decisions%20rather%20than%20logical%20ones.

And it tends to be 'women' more so than men who make those poor decisions because it tends to be women who are put in those positions and who have had previous bad experiences at the hands of men.

Op l am so sorry this happened to you but wholeheartedly think you need to stop feeling the need to be nice to random men.

Predatory men can sense a people pleaser a mile off and it makes you more of a target.
STOP BEING POLITE, practice in the mirror saying.
leave me alone or l will call the police
Go away or l will call the police
I will not talk to you go away.

Practice until it feels as comfortable as saying hello and smiling.
Being 'nice' will not prevent a sexual attack, being a hard nosed bitch will put off some, practice your hard nosed bitch persona.

He clearly told you he would not talk that way to some younger women as they would report him !

We all need to report ALL predatory men ALL the time to protect each other and our daughters.

As he came upstairs l would have refused to speak to him and as he went downstairs l would have called the police saying l felt under threat, next time do not hesitate, do not give the benefit of the doubt, do not tolerate anything.

He sounds like a disgusting pervert and I want to reiterate what other posters have said - you did nothing to cause this. You wanted to keep yourself safe and felt that it was best to go downstairs and chat in a friendly way to him before you got off the bus. You did not invite or encourage his vile comments and what he did was definitely sexual harassment. Please don't blame yourself. It sounds very frightening.

I have experienced similar things in the past with men who have done work on my house and they are very clever at choosing their targets - women who are alone who are polite and 'people pleasers'. I've also had a couple of nasty experiences with minicab drivers when I was younger. It makes me so cross when people (often women) say that we encouraged or 'asked' for it. No we bloody well didn't! I'm pleased that you mum and sister are being supportive. ❤

Hope it's ok to add to the may messages saying this is completely inappropriate behaviour. Hopefully your mum can get it reported.

And, I've been on lots of buses and never does the driver come upstairs to see who is there. That's rubbish. It was done to intimidate you. Sorry.

People who have been sexually abused in childhood can find it impossible to read ang get out of these situations in a way that some people would think is normal

He then said “Are you coming down for a chat?” and I said no I’d rather stay up here as I’m very tired.

You said this and then he left you alone.
So it shows that being firm (you can still be polite) did work.

He spoke like this because you allowed it (and actually joined in with the conversation).
If you struggle with asserting yourself or not wanting to be rude that’s one thing but try and not join in with the conversation because that gives these men the okay to carry on.

Having some things ready to say can be so helpful in these situations.
Even just a jokey “eww that’s too much information” type of comment would have helped or you pretending to text/get a phone call and be only half listening.

As PPs have said putting your head phones in, pretending to be on the phone or listening to a work meeting etc can be great ways to get out of conversations without coming across as rude.

He’s a gross creep who can spot vulnerable women.
Do not feel bad because he preyed on you.
You know you could have done things differently and you will in the future, so in some ways it’s good this happened because it has made you stronger.

There are a few issues here.

Yes, women, when under direct threat of assault, are often nice to placate or reduce the sense of immediate threat.

Yes, men who behave like this are actually the problem and, no, they shouldn't.

Yes, the OP should report him. His behaviour was unacceptable.

No, the OP didn't do anything 'wrong'.

However, she did make a poor judgement and wpuld not have found herself in that conversation if she hadn't initiated it.

It's not victim blaming to say we are all responsible for our own actions.

That does not mean that any of us are responsible for another person's actions but we are responsible for our own.

The people saying to the OP that anyone would have done the same and there was nothing else she could have done are wrong because sue had already asserted herself by initially refusing to talk to him and he had responded appropriately to that by leaving her alone.

She says herself that she does this with everyone - not just random men. She wants to he nice and to make others happy. That is the real issue here and she would be better helped by understanding that she doesn't have to do that and given strategies to avoid it rather than be told what she did was ok and anyone would have done it because it wasn’t and they wouldn't. Certainly not in light of the fact she didn't want to talk to him andnthe fact that the conversation became so unpleasant.

Telling women they are allowed to say no and not engage or be nice to men who make them feel uncomfortable but are not directly threatening them is OK. Because it's true.

It's fine to tell her that, if he has left her alone, then it's OK to ignore that need to feel she needs to be nice to him. Telling her it's normal and understandable won't help her to not find herself in the situation again.

No one has said what he did was fine and not many people have suggested he shouldn't be reported.

This man was a complete weirdo who clearly doesn't behave normally or as expected.
Who knows what else could have happened if she hadn't went down? He might have stopped the bus again before her stop and went back up because he didn't want to miss his opportunity to get his weird kicks from her.

And if ifs and ands were pots and pans...

Point is, he did go back downstairs, he did continue the journey normally, he did drop her at her stop and she did get off the bus safely.

Going downstairs and initiating a conversation with him didn't ensure her safety. He had already left her alone.

If he'd kept her cornered upstairs until she agreed to go down, or pleaded and whined or become threatening, then I'd agree she wouldn't have had much choice and placating him would have been the best course of action.

But none fo that happened.

She said she didn't want to talk, he went back downstairs and the rest of the journey continued without incident until she went downstairs to chat to him and entertained a conversation about open marriages to the point of discussing her friend.

Absolutely none of that was necessary.

Infantilising women and reassuring each other than men are the proverbial big bad wolf won't keep is safe from them.

Yes, there are situations when women have to act to keep ourselves safe but happened here was the shark had stopped butting his head against the cage and had swum away. OP felt mean for not being nice to the shark and opened the door to let him in. She wasn't throwing chum at him to keep him calm.

I didn't say that it ensured her safety, I said we don't know how it would have played out if OP had did something differently.

Not quite.
The door was already open for the shark.
She was still stuck in the cage with the shark at that point.

The Op has blamed herself and is wondering why she invites the unwanted attention from predators and abusers, surely she is allowed to be friendly and approachable to all others without being deemed to be inviting sexual harassment or abuse?

Her actions and behaviour allowed her to safely navigate a situation that shouldn't have happened.
By implying her own action put her in harms way you are laying the blame with her.

People who behave as this driver did need to be called out whether she entered into conversation with him or not. I would imagine the need to be safe kicked in when he stopped the bus in the middle of nowhere and followed her upstairs, from that moment no one could be rational and trust that he would safely allow her to exit at her stop.

If this was your daughter, sister, mother would you be suggesting her going downstairs before her stop invited a 54 year old man to be sexually explicit in his conversations with her? My elderly mother sits at the front of the bus on every journey she makes and she should expect to be able to travel safely and not worry that a smile would encourage the bus driver, no less, to take this as an invite to be disgusting.

My god, some of the replies on this post are shocking.

OP done nothing wrong, stop with the victim blaming.

This man is a disgusting predator

OP done her absolute best to keep herself safe in this awful situation

The end.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you. You done a great job keeping yourself safe ❤️

Edited for spelling