March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Because she will go silent on me until she next needs something

Am I being unreasonable here? How am I supposed to help move someone with half the car space taken?
She's literally expecting me to find someone to look after her so I can help her move.
She's now said I've let her down.
Every time we are in contact she wants favour after favour, she's never available when I need help with DD.

Jelly you've told her, now leave her to get on with it. Is this the same sister who shit all over you at the funeral? She's got s blooming cheek asking! I'm assuming you've not let her down last minute, which would be less than ideal and I'd understand her being peeved if so, but even then she still couldn't make you do it. Tell DD to ignore her and it's not happening. Sister has to hire removals or just hire a car/van if that's enough space. The costs of moving are part and parcel of doing so, she can't expect others to save her the costs. Don't suppose she was even going to pay your petrol was she. If she was nicer, she'd have friends willing to help her load/unload for the move if it's really only a few car loads.

I feel that that's a good thing.

Let her go silent, Jelly. Block her.

You've been through so very much in the last couple of years and nobody helped you. Think of all the terrible distress you had while your dad lived at your house.

Remember your sister's behaviour at your dad's funeral.

You owe her nothing.

This is great. Enjoy your peace in between turning down all these wonderful opportunities of being her skivvy.

She's now said I've let her down.
Every time we are in contact she wants favour after favour, she's never available when I need help with DD

You've let her down?
How about her letting you down while your dad was dying?

I bet she's never available when you need help with your daughter. It's a one way street with her.

It's always the way with her, I once told her I didn't want to go camping as I had work on the Monday & no childcare. She said fine but I'm taking your car and that's not up for debate. I laughed & said no chance - she didn't speak to me for a week.
She puts so much pressure on me for things & guilt trips me.
In a way I do prefer it when we go silent, life is more peaceful as I know she's not going to drop a bombshell on me at any given moment.

I gave her 6 days notice.

@JellyWellyBoots I mean this kindly but you have become totally enmeshed with your sister. You are joining in with all her drama. It's her drama, her problem, her shit to sort out. You said no, that is it. No sorting a babysitter or alternative , NO. Do you even care if she gives you the silent treatment?
When people stay within a situation that is harmful to their peace of mind, ask why, why not do the obvious sensible thing?
Stop being in the drama triangle. Stop being dependent on others, stop allowing others to be dependent on you, anything that causes high levels of stress, you choose to stay within it or you choose to say no. Stop giving your agency to others.
Honestly block your sister xx

Two bits of advice here recently helped me push out an ongoing cycle of negative thoughts.

1. Every time a negative thought comes into my head, acknowledge it and move onto a positive thought or memory instead. It’s working! Thanks for suggesting :)
2. Giving myself permission to take off a heavy coat locked up with horrible memories and experiences and burning that coat! I feel lighter every time I think about this.

In case anyone else is struggling with feelings and memories whirling around in their head too - these two things are helping me and might help you too.

I definitely have a lot of bad memories of my sisters behaviour during my dads illness and when he died. It's part of the reason why I don't feel I should inconvenience myself to benefit her needs anymore.
I've always said yes, even to things I'm not entirely comfortable with through fear of her reaction.
I clearly explained that because I have DD on the day she needs her stuff moved, that I can no longer be available to help. She STILL kept on trying to convince me, even saying DD can just stay at the house she's moving from and watch the TV because her housemate is working from home & he can watch her?!
I find it unfair she thinks she can call the shots & make me do things despite me saying how difficult it is for me to do them. As long as she gets what she needs she doesn't care about anyone else.

As long as she gets what she needs she doesn't care about anyone else

So you just block her, Jelly.

She can only be horrible to you if you keep responding.

That's plenty to hire a transit van and rope one of her friends in to drive it, if she doesn't have a license. I note she isn't even willing to do this to help you help her, Jelly. She just expects you to find a babysitter because that's cheaper for her than hiring a van and paying to fuel it. If she does end up suggesting this and you decide to help after all, make damn sure she goes down as the hirer even if you're the driver. You don't want to be hit for fuel costs or accidental damage when she fails to take care of it and leaves you to return it empty. Personally I'd just block her though. She's treated you appallingly recently and adds nothing good to your life.

Hi. I posted a few weeks ago about my covert narcissist mother. You gave me some brilliant advice. I'm now at grey rock stage. I would appreciate your perspective again please.

Something is eating away at me. But I don't know whether it's linked with toxic families or its just down to just a difference of opinion:

Two years ago my grandma died (enabler Dad's side) after a long period of dementia and time in a rest home. I loved and respected her. Both my parents appeared to have a good relationship with her. She had a full and interesting life.

When she died, my parents organised the funeral. The funeral (crematorium) was awful - no friends invited, no words said, no music. Just pure silence as my grandma disappeared behind the curtain. Then immediate family skipping away as if nothing significant had happened. She's not suffering anymore they said. I don't disagree - I didn't want to see her suffer either but I was upset to lose her.

I guess in other circumstances with another family it may have felt a respectful and a quiet way of saying goodbye. But I feel there should of been a celebration or acknowledgement of her life. I fully appreciate funerals can be complicated, costly and culturally varied. But it felt sad and it felt off. Immediate family went into the pub for food after. They were standoffish with me and I think my feelings were written on my face.

What do you make of this please?

@JellyWellyBoots - you know this isn't going to end well, right? Any interaction with your sister will end badly because she is a user and a drama queen. You are just a pawn in her theatre of life. Do yourself a favour and back away from the chaos. You are not responsible for her moving. She is.

@Nicknack111 - why are you giving this headroom 2 years later? Clearly it upset you, but there is nothing to be done about it now. Do something for yourself to remember her maybe. Plant a flower somewhere or light a candle or go for a walk in nature. And give your mother a wide berth.

@Sicario Thanks for your response and honest, blunt perpective. Why does it matter? Because my grandmother mattered. I am seeking perspective and (polite) viewpoint. Thanks.

It sounds quite odd @Nicknack111 - almost like a direct cremation but not quite. It must’ve been hard to be at a funeral like that, especially if you weren’t expecting it. 💐
Honestly, I don’t know what I make of it - it doesn’t fit with how the people I believe are convert narcissists/ toxic organised funerals.
Did you ever ask your parents about it? (If they are like my CNs then the question would’ve been completely ignored, as if I hadn’t spoken…)

@Interlevels Hi. Thanks for your response. Just before the funeral I asked my mother what the plans were and she did that whole thing of playing it down, describing basic arrangements and her carrying an attitude of don't make a fuss or challenge me on this. I got a look of warning then she walked away. It's like she couldn't be arsed to make an effort. I pick my battles and didn't challenge it. I guess that didn't prepare me for how cold the whole funeral felt.

I'm mulling it over now, as I'm going through the quite recent realisation that I have a narcissist parent. I'm piecing together a hundred scenarios that didn't make sence before. The funeral stands out as an oddity, when I've worked out most other things. I'm a work in progress.

@JellyWellyBoots you really don't have to help her move. I get it that it's awkward. You thought you could help but that has changed. Would I be annoyed with someone who said they could help me and then with 6 days notice said they couldn't help? Yes probably, but it would still be my responsibility (financially and logistically) to sort an alternative. She really isn't behaving in a way that suggests you inconvenience yourself to help.

I'm currently waiting out a slightly different situation but the day off/car thing is related. A family member is expecting me to make a visit to see them as they are to be effectively on a stopover while travelling to an event. They have chosen to set off earlier for the event and because I have a car and a day off they have implied (covert demanded) I should make the 6 hour round trip to where they are going to be. The event and their attendance at it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. I have been given almost 6 weeks to arrange myself to fall in with their plans. My lack of compliance/response is resulting in silence.

Well you can certainly put the funeral down as unusual and cold @Nicknack111 Her reluctance to discuss anything with you and how you noticed how standoffish the rest of the family were. Have you seen much of the extended family since? Keep working through these memories that trouble you.

@JellyWellyBoots I doubt your sister will ever start caring about anyone else. DH has a toxic sister too - he hasn't seen her for several years now. Just completely stopped getting involved with anything to do with her (when she started being nasty to our son - that was it - wish he has done it years ago). She won't stop treating you like this until you stop letting her. I'm so grateful that we've been free of the drama and nastiness this last few years - she will never be given the power to do that again. Honestly, as others have said - let this be a big step towards having much, much less contact with her.

@Nicknack111 - with with narc personalities are simply incapable of doing nice things for other people if it means they have to put themselves out in any way. Whether it's money, effort, or anything else that goes against their toxic grain. They can't stand it.

I have a Highly Toxic Sister and she did exactly the same when our mother died. No funeral. No flowers. Nothing. Refused to communicate about any of it. So I really do get where you're coming from.

There is no way to unpick the reasoning behind this kind of behaviour because it is so far removed from the way normal people think.

@Nicknack111 I attended the funeral of a friend which had no service as such no songs or words and it felt terribly cold so I can understand where you are coming from.
I know a grandparent can treat a grandchild totally different to how they treated their own child.
Maybe none of your grans own children felt she deserved a better send off for some reason.
You put that she was an enabler?

Dear @JellyWellyBoots , the only way to win the game is not to play. 'I clearly explained...'. NO! You don't have to explain! The moment you start to negotiate with them, they will wear you down... I bet you feel exhausted when you have any dealings with her, right? If it's too overwhelming to go no contact now, at least start waiting 24 hours before you reply to her. Get used to taking control.

And @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau , no one is angry with you, darling. We're all on your side. We bloody hate your mother being so horrible to you though! 😄 It's so, so difficult when you're under her roof, under her control. You can't do it alone, I understand that.

But I agree with all the posters advising you to speak to Women's Aid. It doesn't mean you have to do anything before you feel ready, not at all - it just means you'll get some good advice from people who want to help you. You can get some perspective, you will be listened to. That will be a small start.

I wish I could just hug everyone on here... 🤗

@JellyWellyBoots now your dad has passed away you can change your relationship with your sister more easily without worrying about upsetting your dad. You can go NC and pack her off out of your life. Try and get the paperwork in order and get her out of your life she isn't bringing anything to the table to make you want her there.

I’ve just caught up. I’m so sorry about the shit everyone is dealing with.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau financially can you make a long term plan? Eg save with them having no access? Women’s aid. Get your stuff out and looked after by a friend. Could you move in with a friend for 6 months? Or a rehab place? Do you have saving / inheritance you can access to enable you to move?

@JellyWellyBoots can you just block your sister. Just block her. Just say nothing. If she turns up just say - I no longer want any relationship with you and shut the door- could that work? The longer it goes on the easy it is? Funnily enough I haven’t spoken to my sister for 3 years - don’t miss her at all.

@Nicknack111 you think about it because it was awful and at that time you could do very little to change the situation as the abusive ones were in charge. A silent funeral?
Could you plan your own celebration to her? A place where she can live on in memory this could be a concert you go to and the ticket could go on her grace if she has one or a special place, or her favourite animal to sponsor in her name or someone she liked? Her funeral was done by her parents and you can’t change that but you can change your memory of her. I wasn’t allowed to see my great aunt before she died and although I phoned to be told no one was with her and she was dying - my parents are very if you are ill you are in hospital and no point in visiting. If you are dead no point in making a fuss - as they have no empathy. I did some things in her memory she always wanted to go to Australia etc. it also is horrific as if you die you might be thinking that’s how they will do your funeral. So have you got a plan and someone to carry it out? Sorry don’t want to bring you down - but I wouldn’t want my parents planning mine!!
In fact I don’t want them invited.