March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I can only speak of my own lived experience, but going very very lc with my siblings has taken any power they had over me.

I don't know how better to explain it.

Once mum is no longer here I will go nc with no regrets whatsoever.

They cannot harm/upset me any longer as they know nothing about me or my family. They do not get asked to my home or to celebrations and I only contact them regarding mum if I absolutely have to.

I stopped giving them the power to hurt/upset me.

It's wonderful 😊

Bad one with my mother today and I think triggered by the cat spending the night with me not her. I haven't had explicit confirmation of that but I didn't do anything unusual and she is just shouting at people for no reason at the moment because she is annoyed with her own parents.

So today we had the usual you're evil, you're a monster, I wish you had been stillborn, everyone is leaving you (true, my boyfriend has just left me explicitly citing her as the reason) and then she added the kicker which was that I had caused her horse to be killed and my grandparents were too scared to speak to me.

Re the horse - I literally stopped studying veterinary medicine because I couldn't bear the thought of having to put animals down. She said it was because of money. She and my father own houses worth over four million a year. Takeaways twice a week and they're financing my sister's life in Paris. They are also currently paying for two horses to be ridden and kept by someone else in an expensive professional yard. They are not short of money. She smacked me in public and in front of my ex for allegedly hitting the same horse. I did not. Everyone bloody knows I would never hit an animal. And she is the one who had my horse, who I bought from her at the cost of my whole inheritance from one grandparent and paid my parents more than they paid to buy her, shot behind my back.

And the grandparents thing is even worse. I haven't gone near them since I've been as unwell as I have been recently so just like my sister who lives in a different country, all they know is what my mother tells them. I'm not violent. I can barely walk for a start. They are scared of her, but I'm not aware they are scared of me. But I was very close with them. They probably don't have long left and I really want to see them. Her lies poison everything. And she calls me the liar. I am not even sure if I am or not at this point.

All this and more and I think it's because of a cat for goodness' sake. I should be tougher and stronger and laughing because it's pathetic. But it is very, very difficult to laugh when your mother is telling you she wishes you'd been born dead and just fucking with your brain in every way imaginable.

FFS just move out, Cecile.

From what I understand, I doubt it's that easy, financially, logistically or even emotionally.

Thank you Jai. It is almost financially and logistically impossible because I'm subject to financial abuse so my savings are basically zero. I do know I'm complaining a lot but I literally can't move out and I do also need MH treatment. Can't get either right now. I'm sorry that I'm annoying but I wouldn't be here if I didn't have to.

I don't find you annoying Cecile. I think you are in an impossible situation and my heart goes out to you. I wish you could find a way out and away from the pernicious control by your mother but I can see how difficult that could be for you.

I have realised over the past week that my DM is a narcissist. I've been reading up on it and she ticks so many of the boxes; feeding off validation and admiration from others, grandiosity, lack of empathy etc. She undermines me in front of my DCs, and blatantly favours one of them, which drives me nuts. There is much more besides.

I've realised that over the years I have naturally started to implement certain coping mechanisms without knowing, "grey rocking" in particular. I make sure to avoid telling her anything of substance wherever possible. I've also tried to limit contact but this has been hard as she wants to see her GCs. I avoid asking her for any help, with anything, she is actually incapable of being genuinely helpful. I feel that I have come a long way over the past few years, we don't have raging arguments any more as I don't give her the emotional reaction to her behaviour that she needs in order for things to escalate. I've accepted that we will never have the kind of mother daughter relationship that I would have liked. However, I feel guilty, that I am a 'bad daughter' quite often and have an anxious feeling in the pit of my stomach. It really doesn't help that I am an only child.

There are some things from my childhood that after all these years I still find hard to forgive. They probably sound minor to others but here goes:

• Getting rid of my pets without discussing with me first or allowing me to say goodbye. Any attempt by me to make a fuss, get upset or angry at them for doing this was quickly shut down, my feelings weren't acknowledged and weren't important. I am an only child and my pets were very important to me
• Constantly making me feel conscious of my weight (i wasn't overweight as a child) and weighing me before letting me have sweets (granted this may have only been once but i still remember it clearly and how it made me feel, I was around 5 at the time). When my gran once commented to me how 'slim' i looked my mum looked visibly annoyed and snapped 'why are you looking at me?' to me, as I was checking for her reaction after my gran said this to me (I knew my mum wouldn't like it). When we went clothes shopping once, when I was an older teen, I had gone up a dress size to size 16 (note I am tall), my mum was obviously cross/upset with me
• Worst of all, I was very ill as a young child and was hospitalised for several weeks. The doctors told my parents that there was a good chance I had been left infertile by my illness. My parents never told me this. Sure enough, I later encountered fertility issues and spent a significant amount of time ttc, it was such a tough time for me and my lovely dh, thinking we might never be able to have kids. When we finally succeeded, after eventually discovering the issue by ourselves with the help of the doctors, I told my parents I was pregnant and how difficult it had been and only then did they volunteer the information from my childhood. They never apologised for this.

She is currently cross at me I think, as I didn't want to see her this weekend, and suggested another date in a couple of weeks time. She said she was going to just 'pop by' anyway even after I suggested another date, but I stood firm (politely). We'll probably have a week or two of nc then the 'love bombing' will start (this concept is a recent discovery of mine but I really recognise it in my mum as a way of trying to manipulate me).

There is a lot more I could say but that's enough for now. Thanks if you made it this far!

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau you are not in the least annoying. You are in an incredibly difficult situation right now. Yes of course your best option is to get away from them but I know your circumstances are hard. YOU ARE NOT ANNOYING THOUGH. Far from it. My heart hurts when I read your messages it really does. Post all of the time. Do not keep it inside. Do not get more unwell. We are here for you.

@cecile
You are being abused/coerced
Please contact women's aid
You can leave
They've just convinced you that you have no options
Xxx

I'm gearing up for lunch at pils
First time in 4 years (pre covid)
No doubt fil will just moan about things he can't/ won't change, maybe some racist comment to boot, mil will sit silently, sil will also just sit on her backside
Well, I won't be running around after them :)
I'm trying to figure out how much time we need to spend there before leaving
Sigh

This x1000 you can get help even if you don't feel strong enough. Even if you don't think you fit this profile.x

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau Your mother sounds horrific. I'm so sorry. I've only read your most recent post so obviously don't know your full circumstances. Is phoning/visiting your grandparents out of the question?

It's quite a revelation @Epiphany24 - when you realise and everything just slots into place. I remember when I first heard about [covert] narcissism and all the boxes got ticked...epiphany indeed. Definitely helped lift most of the FOG and the cognitive dissonance.

Good luck @user8800 - hope you and your DH have agreed on an exit strategy/time now.

I've decided to come back to this thread (visited several times over the years at different stages) as I understand that I have a lot more work to do. I thought that coming here would keep me stuck ruminating in some way and that I wasn't in a great place to offer any advice as I was still picking my way through the mess. However, I'm not doing well in making any progress on my own. I feel really stuck.

I've got the double whammy of complicated childhood (starting with the death of my [lovely] mum when I was a young child - it is a long one so I'll summarise with it was a complex mix of caregivers who were abusive in a variety of ways (those are now dead) and ones who were amazing) and marrying into dysfunctional family (look very functional and normal from the outside - DH warned me, and I didn't believe him...covert narcissism definitely sums it up - triangulation/lies/GC & SC dynamic...a lot of stories to tell but they all amount to the same thing).

The problems I have are [late teen, only child] adult DC who has been protected from almost everything is asking a lot of questions and thinks grandparents are their mask. My ruminations (despite deciding a couple of years ago to completely stop mentioning them at all). The effect all of this has had on DH but he refuses counselling (recently started bringing up things from his childhood and describing his mother as evil). It really is the gift that never stops giving seemingly...

@Ncforthebest @Juniperberries200 and all the recent newbies to the Stately Homes Club. About those feelings that you describe as being put away in a box: I likened this to wearing a huge heavy overcoat that didn't belong to me. The coat was made of horrible memories, negative feelings and sewn together with all the guilt and FOG in the world. It weighed a ton.

Here's the thing. I chose to take that coat off and burn it. It was never mine. I had been forced to wear it and didn't realise that I could shrug it off and remove the weight of the world from my own shoulders.

You can too. If you think you need permission, then I hereby grant that permission to you. Take that bastard thing off and set fire to it.

@Genuineweddingone - She really is a nightmare from hell isn't she? People like that just cannot handle having no attention. Everything has to be turned into a drama. She could probably start a row in an empty room. I'm so sorry that this is causing you such anguish. Anxiety is a horrible feeling. What are your current coping mechanisms for managing it?

@Sicario just throwing myself into work, crying a lot and alowing myself to hurt in order to try heal and wine lol

Hi, I've been on stately homes on and off for years usually when things got really bad but always read them.

I've been nc for a couple of years now and still working my way through things.

I saw something on tv thst triggered memories but not of my family, of situations where other people have been really rude or in one case shouted at me in public for no real reason and I didn't stand up for myself. I dont struggle to stand up for my children (one has sen so always battling the system) but whe it comes to myself I just don't. I was bullied at school too. Does anyone else find this? Is it a common sort of side effect? If so did you learn to be more assertive/ less of a pushover?

I wonder if I just have a look of a sort of pushover if that makes sense?

It's really hard to unpick @Perzival but I've wondered similar things.

I'm inclined now to think that there are bullies/unreasonable people all over the place but, perhaps, we have a heightened response to them (and take on blame/shame) and in the early days of recovery/pre recovery perhaps hung around longer. I definitely do stand up for myself more now but I also see walking away/not bothering to rise to it as a definite response.

I think perhaps that people are less likely to take it personally/get over it quicker and aren't ruminating about incidents years down the line (I did/do this) if they hadn't been abused as children. Doesn't mean they're not shaken at the time but they don't take it on.

I've had some concern recently that I've become too vigilant towards negative character traits and I'm isolating myself to some extent.

Hi @Perzival I know exactly what you mean and I have this issue too. I'm really bad with confrontation, always have been. If someone shouts at my I usually just clam up and don't say anything unless I'm really pushed then I tend to lose it.

I think it stems from my parents bad marriage were my mother would constantly "goad" my father then he would react by shouting and then a massive argument with shouting, door slamming and occasionally was physical. They were both at fault.
I have a memory as a child of being at the end of my street and hearing them arguing in the house.
Whenever I hear arguing and shouting I seem to be very oversensitive to it.
Whenever my mother started an argument or being nasty I always backed down but now respond which I don't think always helps.

I'm a nurse, unfortunately I think the "hierarchy "doesn't help. I've started a new job and have had a few people snapping at me, other nurses, doctors and others as I'm still learning, it can be a really stressful environment.
I'm still trying to learn in my 50s to respond to this behaviour, I've got better and am confident in other ways but get caught off guard at times.

@Perzival I can also relate to a lot of what you say. I suppose it’s inevitable that when you grow up in dysfunction that you have very little self worth, self esteem and self confidence? That’s what I feel is the cause of my inaction when it comes to anger/aggression from people in the past. However, through a lot of self work I’m definitely much better in terms of my response, is it where I would like it to be? No, but I think it’s a natural consequence of being traumatised. Every day I try to be self compassionate, it’s hard as my natural self defence or self respect (not sure if either of those are accurate) was suppressed. I do believe that with time this part of myself, and you, will improve. It’s a day by day thing, I think.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau Cecile, you know what she's like, she lies and you can't trust anything she says. So try to stop taking what she says as true - for example about your grandparents being scared of you. You know it's bollocks. As for all the vile stuff she says, maybe she really thinks that or maybe she's just trying to hurt you. You have to grow a shell and not take anything she says twww.mumsnet.com/talk/_chato heart or doubting yourself. Keep reminding yourself of that. She's just a terrible human being and you have to get away. Unfortunately that may mean no access to your GP's as well, but then you aren't seeing them anyway whilst your remain are you.

So please, don't give up on moving out. Of course it's hard to leave with no money, especially with your physical health problems as well as mental fragility. But women leave domestic violence situations with absolutely nothing all the time. My mother left my father with 2 small kids in the clothes we wore and a little suitcase each, in the 1970's when there were barely any benefits for single mothers and no women's refuges. So you can do it too. There is help out there, you just need to access it. People will be there to help but you need to ask for it. Women's Aid has been suggested before and I don't know if you've tried or not but either way, try again. Only you can take that first step.

Also when you say financial abuse. It's your sick pay I assume, coming into your bank account? Or she has access to your savings account? So stop paying it to her or get her removed from the account. Tell her there's been a payroll cock up or a bank problem and you are sorting it out, Just LIE. By the time it's meant to be 'sorted' you can be out of there. Even a few weeks of not paying money over will help get you on your feet somewhere else.

Thank you all for your replies and insights. I think for me I never really learnt how to stand up for myself, I was the scapegoat so took a lot of blame for things that clearly weren't my fault. Eg my dm said the reason she divorced my dad back was because of something I said (they'd both had affairs for many years and my dsds other woman showed up at the door, which was when my dad left) and I was a teenager. It became an ongoing joke in the family that everything was my fault even big news incidents. I think you get conditioned to taking it and it becomes normal.

I hope I do cope better, I am trying and @junebugalice yes I agree it is one day at a time. One big change is that I am noticing that this is wrong now rather than it bring normal.

Cecile my ex used to tell me my parents didn't like me and had busy lives of their own so wouldn't want me to stay over. It was purely a tactic to stop me leaving. Reckon you could show up at your grandparents door and stay a few weeks until you'd secured a room to rent elsewhere and they'd not mind. Maybe not practical if they don't live close but I wouldn't believe what your mother says. She wants you around so she can keep on kicking you and stealing your money.

I'm a bit peeved - my sister asked me to help her move house & said it would take a couple of trips & I initially said yes as I thought DD would be in school. I then realised it's still going to be half term so I told her to find someone else as I won't have the car space if I have 3 people in the car.
I told her this & she said she has no one else & even told DD on the phone we were helping her after I had told her we couldn't.

She isn't accepting my 'no'. & it's saying she has no one else etc.
we only started talking again a week ago & she's calling in favours already. Every time I ask her to help me with anything she's busy.

@JellyWellyBoots just block her.
Every time you let her talk to you she upsets you and overrides what you say.

A brief "No, I'm not doing that" then block her.

She's asked me to find someone to watch her while I help her. She said I've got the day off and a car...
I'm not allowed to say no.

Yes you are allowed to say no.
What, realistically, will happen if you don't do what she says?