March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I always thought that on some level she knows I moved away because of her. And me being close would mean she wouldn't have to try to entertain these thoughts. I don't actually think she's been thinking it, how would I know, but I just always thought she has an inkling.

Years ago I told her I won't renew my ID card from my home country because it's not needed and she had a go at me how I am a citizen of that country and she got really angry and I felt guilty. I didn't renew it.

Now I'm thinking of getting UK citizenship. Maybe I'll wave with a blue passport at her when she dies. I feel really spiteful today.

Yeah there are some things it seems like surely they must realise...but it's like they are in deep denial and won't let the thought rise to the surface...a function that my brain doesn't have, I wouldn't mind a little bit of that skill.

I left home at 18, left the country at 22, only went back occasionally for short visits, never initiate contact etc etc. She doesn't know anything about the friends I've had through my life or things like that - she has never seemed interested and now I am glad of it because she can't get to me through anyone else as she doesn't even know who they are. But I find it strange that she doesn't seem to think it strange that she doesn't know about my life. But the way she talks is as if we have a fairly normal relationship but I am just a thoughtless neglectful daughter. And I just think "How can you not guess that I hate you from all this???" She just can't face it. Of course it must be so hurtful for a parent to be rejected by their child, it's just the utter, unshakeable denial of reality has stopped us from ever resolving anything.

Sometimes if I have told her about something significant after the fact she will be like "wHy DiDn'T yOu TeLl Me?" and I don't even know what to say as she's in a complete fantasy about the kind of relationship we have.

Edit to say that it makes sense what you are saying - that if you are close by she doesn't have to deal with the whisper of fear that it's her you want to get away from.

I just read this and it hit a nerve.

I also get more emotional than I should if someone makes a kind gesture or is just friendly. I have not experienced that feeling much in childhood.

I then think back and think everything my mum did was because it made her look good or to please others but not to benefit me.

@Raggycrow yup, totally get the fantasy thing. How many parents 'dont know why their adult children don't want anything to do with them'? Or at least so they claim. I don't think it's black and white. I think most know they have treated their child poorly, but fail to want to see the full extent of the damage.

My therapist said that it's too painful for them to face the truth now in their 70s. She said 'imagine if they understood now how all this has affected you'? Tbh I'm not fully onboard with this view. Age is no excuse. They didn't think twice about abusing me as a child so why should old age protect them from the reality. Why should they die thinking 'we have done all we could'? They don't deserve to.

And if being rejected by the child is so painful, why don't they do something about it? Why don't they educate themselves? Why don't they see a therapist? Why not respect whatever boundaries I set, whatever need I express just for once? It can't be that painful then as they continue to prioritise their fantasy world and don't try to move out of it.

I don't believe that facing reality would be more painful for them than it has been for me. That it's supposedly more difficult for them.

@Raggycrow honestly I’d definitely go NC. You’re definitely not being selfish or unreasonable to consider it. They are only reaping what they sowed in your childhood. My mum was a bloody misery and everything was poor her. I remember once when I was trying to tell her to be more positive, she sneered at me saying oh I was full of positivity & joy when I was your age, and before I could stop myself I blurted, no you weren’t, you’ve always been miserable with such force my Dad nearly spat his tea across the room! Mum sat there blinking looking shocked! In hindsight it was funny, but as soon as I said it I was shocked as I never usually answered back. That was the beginning of the end really, I just couldn’t play the role she’d given me anymore.

Now I’m NC I don’t have to listen to her toxic nonsense, I don’t go from having a nice day to being a twitching mess after one of her calls/texts and the guilt does ease as peace enters your life. My mum was also a total ball of complete screaming anger and rage, it’s exhausting & stressful. Life is always spent walking on eggshells when in contact with them. It’s just not worth it and not good for your wellbeing.

@Twatalert I’m with you on not buying your therapist’s point of view. This is where therapists who do not have experience of growing up in a dysfunctional family fail to understand their mindsets. Narcissistic parents don’t have the empathy or ability to see outside themselves, see the mistakes they’ve made and feel remorse. Plus they love being a victim! I know full well my mum only misses my usefulness to her, the fact she has one less person in her audience and one less person to manipulate and nothing more, she’s not capable of love or regrets.

@SkylarkDay yes, I have thought a few times that my therapist doesn't fully get it.

It had a bad undertone of 'its too hard for them' and that I somehow needed to see that and I just can't see it like that. It sounded like an excuse and I just don't accept excuses.

How on earth do you find a therapist who gets it. It takes ages to figure this out once you start with one. Some don't know what symptoms of PTSD or cptsd feel like and that 'you can't just go about your life anyway'. I literally had this conversation this week. That when I'm so tense and in a bad place that I just have to avoid triggers as a new flashback will send me down a deep hole that I am not ready for.

@Twatalert I am with @SkylarkDay in that I don't agree with your therapist. In fact it fills me with anger when therapists do this coaxing people into empathy for their abusers thing. Because guess what - I already see things from my mother's point of view - she hasn't stopped telling me about her point of view since I was born. I know more about the woes of her childhood than she knows about mine and she was there for mine!! I think we all had to develop that hyper-vigilance and hyper-attunement to what was going on emotionally with our parents to try to keep ourselves safe as young children, when it is actually the parents who are supposed to attune to the child's needs. In fact it is quite crippling in my life that I am hypervigilant and highly anxious about what is happening emotionally for people at all times and I only ever feel relaxed when alone or with animals. So I don't need to spend time and money in therapy thinking about my parents' needs even more and I find it condescending when therapists do this. Thank goodness for all the content available online and in books etc, and that we can find each other in forums like this, as most therapists I've seen in person fall into the just don't get it category.

Yes they never try to do anything to really repair things. My mother would never consider even for a second picking up any self help book and flicking through it - zero curiosity. With increasing frequency and intensity she asks can we "chat more" says "we're drifting apart and we mustn't let that happen" (ha - "drifting apart" as in me desparately trying to claw my way away from her) "I miss you" but not once has she said anything like "is there something I can do to help improve our relationship?", "maybe we should talk through things from the past", "x situation must have been hard for you and I'm sorry" etc. Increasing emotional blackmail seems to be her only tool.

@SkylarkDay Thanks so much for your support and validation 🙏

Ha that story is so funny, I can imagine the shock and worrying about what she would do in that moment. Your natural honestly just couldn't be suppressed any longer!

Can't edit for some reason - thought I was still in time - but I just wanted to add that my mother is the same with boundaries. It would so easy to just respect the odd small token boundary now and again in order to improve our relationship but she will not do this. Can't let me win for a second. Will do things she knows will upset me, claim total innocence and try to reel me back in with guilt trips.

@Raggycrow
Excellent posts. You write with such insight and clarity. It helps to hear it expressed by others so clearly.

As regards the empathy thing. I struggle with this as my sister has recently realised a lot of her issues come from being autistic. This is no real news to me as I have autistic children myself but I feel like it is being used as a get out of jail free card !
I am struggling between the anger I feel at the way my sister has treated me and the horrendous ongoing effects her parenting has had on my neice and nephew, and the guilt I feel at refusing to just brush it all under the carpet as my mother wants me to do.
My mum is doing her best to pull me into line because she wants me to be responsible for my sisters wellbeing after she is gone because my sister can't help.it apparently. She has issues! . .Well don't we all ? But we don't use them to act in ways that destroy other people.
That is my logical brain talking but if I am honest I really don't think she can help.it. It is too late to change now and the die is cast. She has zero ability to reflect on herself , takes no responsibility for anything and is deluded in her assessment of herself.
And at the bottom of it all I do love her and even though it is a mess of her own making I feel so sad at the way her life has turned out.
I am so torn between the conflicting emotions myself so I think it is perfectly possible to have a measure of empathy for the sufferings and struggles people have endured that may have marred them but at the end of the day we are all responsible for our own choices and actions. Some choose to perpetuate the cycle and others break it entirely. We are in the latter group and it comes at huge cost in the loss of family relationships and stability that should be every child's right. This stuff is hard.

@Raggycrow can relate to so much of your story, I am sorry you are going through it. You have been through so much and are not dramatic, what your mum said about your friends mum dying from suicide was unhinged. I remember when telling my mum that my Scottish friends mum died of a heart attack she proceeded to tell me about a missed call she had from Scotland and was telling me all about that. I was standing there like wtf are you on about.
What your dad did to you seems intentional, I would keep as far away from them all as possible.

@flapjackfairy I'm in no way suggesting that this is true or the case for your family but I recently read a piece by a psychologist or psychiatrist, I don't remember, about misdiagnosed autism and ADHD etc when in fact some of those diagnosed have personality disorders and aren't autistic etc.

It did strike a nerve because I wondered for a while whether I'm autistic but i think it's 'just' my trauma speaking which may make behaviours seem similar and I'm responsible for fixing.

@Twatalert
That's interesting ! My now adult son is an obviously high functioning autistic person and my brother is clearly the same. in fact there is a lot of ADHD , dispraxia etc in my extended family . But non of those people are selfish and abusive in any way at all. My son is a kind gentle soul who wouldn't hurt a fly physically or verbally. So I struggle to see why my mum thinks we should just accept my sister and her issues when the rest of us are given no leeway at all. In fact she is quick to pull me up on any little thing and was a very critical mother growing up with little or no praise. We have all made excuses for my sister her whole life but I just can't play the game anymore .

@Twatalert yes finding a therapist who’s also been through it is nearly impossible. It’s like many addiction counsellors are ex addicts. That totally makes sense! How can you really understand without experiencing it? Reading books and training only take them so far. Also PTSD is exactly as you are describing. I had PTSD from an incident at work 25 years ago and certain things would trigger me to being back in that time and place. It was horrible.

@Raggycrow definitely with you on the hyper vigilance thing. It’s a bloody curse!! I’ve always struggled to enjoy many social interactions because I’m on hyper vigilance constantly when in any company, I can’t switch it off! I’m fretting & trying to read what people are actually feeling inside, rather than behaving like on the surface. They’re probably just being normal and honest. It’s like I’m on high alert always and I can’t switch it off. I see it’s from growing up with my irrationally furious, violent & angry mother who would attack us, both physically & mentally for simple things like misplacing a shoe, or scream in our faces she wished she‘d had an abortion!! I hate being hyper vigilant although my husband says how good I am at seeing through people straight away. I feel my trust in general with most of the human race is damaged due to my upbringing and that makes me sad. Also agree with finding peace in animal’s company, it’s because I do trust them x

@flapjackfairy I agree with your comments regarding ADHD/Autism. My husband and most of his family have ADHD but he is the kindest soul although disorganised and chaotic sometimes, as are his family members with it. Plus I often use to wonder if I was on a spectrum due to quirks like the hyper vigilance/sensitivity and now after much reading, I see it’s text book symptoms caused by my dysfunctional upbringing. Also a couple of my absolute best friends are autistic and I do find I am drawn to autistic people. I think it’s because they don't usually manipulate, play games or lie, because they generally can’t. I love that honesty and as my best friend who’s autistic says, she’s brutally blunt and honest which sometimes causes her issues elsewhere. But to me, I love it as it’s the opposite of my untrustworthy, lying, game playing manipulative family dynamics when growing up. What you see is what you get with many autistic people and I find it refreshing and easier to trust them.

Thanks so much@flapjackfairy that's such a nice compliment.

Sorry to hear about the situation with your mother and sister. I strongly relate to that experience of the family trying to pull you back in to look after a sibling. Yeah it's just so hard to know how much someone is in control of their actions - how much of their behaviour is just them and how much is something they can't help. We can't ever fully put ourselves in someone else's brains, especially if their way of thinking is very different to ours. I get that with the narcissism thing - although my mother knows enough to act very differently depending on who's around, can she help the fundamental problem underneath? The thing is the damage we experience from their actions is the same and is valid, whatever the reason behind their behaviours. I just can't subject myself to that anymore even if my mother can't help the way she is. And I still feel rage about it all.

Thank you @Supamum3 I really appreciate your support and solidarity - although I'm sorry you are also so familiar with this dynamic🙄

I can't believe I get so much comfort from someone telling me my mother is unhinged. It's because so much has been presented to me as normal (in fact saint-like) about her. Her brother stopped talking to her once and I think they are still NC. I'm not sure I even understand his reasons but I swear it was the happiest day of my life and a weight lifted off of me. - because up until that point I thought every single person except me thought she was perfect.

Oh gosh that's so awful about your friend's mum, I'm so sorry. I can just imagine my mother doing exactly that in that situation.

Not nearly as significant an event but once I was telling my mother that I had reconnected with a childhood friend. I was really happy about this. I said that she was living in London now and my mother said "ooh (my sister) went to London the other day. She bought a lovely (item of clothing? I can't remember)" and that was the end of me talking about my friend. I think I got a good 10 seconds in though...

Yes I am the same @SkylarkDay I definitely see it as a curse. It's not like it even makes me this lovely empathetic person - I'm so anxious wondering what people's real emotions are and if they hate me that I can't even be properly there for them or just enjoy and appreciate them for the person they are. At the moment I think the fundamental thing I need to do is work on regulating my nervous system - try and rewire my brain to be a bit calmer, even if just a little bit, because that's going to underpin dealing with my family without going into meltdown, and everything else in my life.

That's so shocking your mother said she wished she'd had an abortion - I'm so sorry. I bet she still thinks she's a wonderful nurturing person though?

Sorry @SkylarkDay - she didn't even say it to you - she screamed it at you. Not that saying it quietly and politely would have been much better, but the screaming thing probably triggered fear and alarm too

@Raggycrow Yes, she was always hysterical and shouting, screaming etc. She behaved like a furious toddler if not happy. As a child she got thrown out of Brownies for throwing a bucket of water over Brown Owl and she use to boast about it. She was also in severe trouble at primary school for whacking some other kid around the head with one of those old fashioned wooden pencil cases. Again she was proud of it, but my granny/grandad weren’t. She’d also smash things up in a temper, and once broke a large wall mirror over my sister’s head. She’s a total nutcase. Sometimes it’s hard to remember these things now she’s an old lady, but the hate is still behind her eyes. However she’s sane enough to put on a normal charming act when needed, all the airs and graces, which means she can control herself when she wants to.

My younger sister has suffered terribly with anorexia, addiction issues etc, but only because she’s tried to blank out the severe anxiety she has. That’s the problem for many of us with childhoods like this, we end up struggling with PTSD, anxiety and being a nervous wreck. That’s why I find NC such a relief, at least I know going forward there’s no more torment from that monster!

@Raggycrow this may sound strange to some, but one of the best tools I found for my nerves and to be calmer & happier was a Mindfulness meditation course. I did an eight week course a few years ago and now practice at home. When I’m in a regular daily cycle of taking 20-30 minutes out to myself to do this I feel so much better. Obviously life gets in the way and I lose my routine and I can always feel my anxiety creeping back in. May not work for all and maybe not everyones cup of tea but it makes me see things in a more detached way, rather than overthinking & internalising everything. I signed up not knowing what to expect, but it was a total game changer for my mental health.

@SkylarkDay I think this frenzied hysterical toddler thing is almost a deliberate tactic - although maybe not consciously done. It gets us anxious, on the back foot, confused and activated into fight/flight - and this makes us easier to control as we are off balance. I don't know if this is the case - just a thought I've had.

Thank you - no not strange at all. In fact I was doing an online meditation meetup that was on every weekday morning for 20 minutes until recently. The guy running it stopped doing it unfortunately and I fell out of the habit. Thank you for the reminder to get back into it. It definitely helps over time.

I also use those body postures when I'm becoming distressed...I don't know the proper name - could be something to do with somatic exercises but I don't think it's that🤔but say for example putting one hand on your chest and the other hand over it and then gentle pressure - supposed to release the same hormones as being hugged (I think...I could be making that up). It's quite comforting anyway. Or right hand on forehead and left hand on the back of the neck or on the chest. Or just doing abdominal breathing. One therapist suggested also saying to myself "I'm here, I've got you".

But the main thing for me is that I'm starting to remember to do anything at all to regulate myself in moments of intense emotional distress as for most of my life my whole thinking would switch once I started to spiral down and I would feel a need to sabotage myself, or just that I was worthless - I didn't deserve to be comforted.

I think you’re right regarding the hysterical behaviour, it’s a form of bulling everyone into doing as they wish. Yes I’ve heard of the other exercises you mention. I think anything that helps us to stop and disengage from our default setting of high alert/fight/flight is very beneficial. It’s exhausting and I find the meditation calms my brain. It’s important to realise we are people to be valued too, just because they didn’t value us means absolutely nothing! They are the abnormal ones, not us. x