March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Supamum3 yes it’s a really helpful thread. The whole process can feel very, very lonely. Then you come on here and realise you’re definitely not alone and nobody understands except those who have suffered similar abuse and have dysfunctional toxic families. That’s what I’ve found useful here, whereas a therapist is trained, often many haven’t experienced this trauma first hand so can’t really understand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this treatment and the scars it leaves.

Well liar of the century, aka my mother posted a poor me post online last night saying how sad she is to finally have put her husband, her ROCK, into a nursing home full time.

1. This 'rock' is the man she told people at my brothers wedding was put into care because he was physically harming her (he has dementia)
2. The wedding was just under a year ago and she had already put her husband into the care home then

Looking for attention, looking for sympathy, completely blinkered to the fact most people will know he has been in the home a long time already but shes twisted the narrative now and apparently says she had him every weekend out of there. Absolute tripe but she got her poor me responses.

How an you not be a ashamed of blatent lies? Shes beyond redemtion.

@StrawberryTeddybear the anger, betrayal and injustice fades, you get to a point where you no longer care. However each time you
re-engage it's back to square one.
@Genuineweddingone I stopped feeling embarrassed by mum years ago, anyone who thought less of me because of her behaviour was blocked. I had no control over my mother's attention seeking and lies. It was nothing to do with me. I had to develop a very thick skin I also moved abroad. I blocked mum and family on social media so I didn't have to keep cringing.

I'm longing for the day I no longer care and can shake off the guilt. I sometimes even feel compassion for my abusive parents who gave me a lifetime of trauma symptoms and a wonderful eating disorder. Because how sad is it that they cannot face reality and keep up their false narrative instead.

Then I feel anger and pure disgust. Anger because I don't think they feel compassion for me back. Anger for all the issues they gave me that robbed me of my childhood, youth and my whole 20s. I only really started living a bit in my 30s since I began healing. And now I realise I cannot live how I want to because I dissociate so heavily that I'm too exhausted or just avoid things to not get the trauma symptoms. It really pisses me off.

Recently I started to feel a short panic in my body on seeing a car like theirs and the car they had before that and which they sold 7 years ago. It's so infuriating. Then I remind myself that they are a whole flight away and it's not them. Would anyone believe that I seem to have trauma around certain cars now!? I can hardly believe it myself.

@rollerbutterfly i think you made the right decision not to send the message. It hurts when you realise there is no point, but it’s also followed in time by some relief because you’re beginning to see things as they really are, which means less disappointment on unrealistic expectations of change going forwards.

@Genuineweddingone the embarrassment my Mum has caused over the years is mind blowing. But as narcissists they have no self awareness that people see them as they truly are. I’ve always found it staggering how my Mum can lie to people even when people know it’s a lie. It shows them to be delusional and not right in their mind.

@rollerbutterfly pat yourself on the back for not responding. It's a huge achievement.

I sometimes have tears in my eyes when strangers say something nice to me or do small acts of kindness. Then I wonder why my own family couldn't treat me like that and everything had to be earned and be conditional.

I still don't have it in my system that some people are nice just because they are and they aren't trying to manipulate me.

@rollerbutterfly omg! Firstly that’s so awful and secondly that could have come from my awful mother’s mouth too! She treats people in cafes/retail like servants and behaves like she’s the landed gentry! (She’s most definitely not!!). My husband calls her Mrs bouquet after the TV programme keeping up appearances. Putting on fake airs and graces. Cringeworthy!! I’ve always found it mortifying!

@Twatalert thats what people from normal families find so hard to understand, the life long scars this treatment leaves on us all. As children it shaped us and prevented us becoming who we really are. I was very angry for a long time, but my anger has faded somewhat, and I started to find it a lot easier as indifference slowly crept in and I started to let go. I think I mostly feel sadness more than anger now, purely for what I never had. That’s not to say something can trigger me some days. However I consciously try to look forwards rather than back now I am NC. Easier said than done I know.

Hi
Hope it's ok if I come here for a bit of a vent. I feel in bits. It might get a bit long.

I'm in that endless rumination loop between rage, guilt and sorrow.

I never thought I'd do the No Contact thing but I don't know how to keep going while knowing I could get a text any time.

My mother has been feeling the vulnerability of aging lately. Completely valid and understandable. I live in a different country so don't do anything for her. I'm sure people think I'm an absolute bitch daughter as I have no partner or kids and I still don't do anything to help but I just can't do it. She has my dad and has friends around her. To be clear I left and got far away at 18 and left for another country at 22 and I'm now in my late 40s - I didn't suddenly abandon them in old age. I've never asked them for help, financial or otherwise.

My mother keeps pressing for us to "chat" more frequently on the phone. Whenever we talk it's her tales of victimhood, that I've been hearing my whole life, but they've reached a whole new level of intensity. She wants me to soothe and comfort her all the time. Or it will be complaining, with real venom in her voice, how my cousins don't do enough for their uncle, but I suspect it's really aimed at me not doing enough for her.

I just really resent it because she never gave any support to me. If I was upset as a child I would either get stonewalled or raged at and shamed. Once as a teenager I cried and she hugged me and it was so weird - I didn't know why it was happening and why I wasn't in trouble and it was only years later I twigged that it was because there was an audience of extended family present. No wonder they all seem to hate me. They don't know the reality of the behind-closed-doors parent I wanted to escape from.

Ugh there's so much to this - I don't know what to include and what not to.

My father was very prone to sudden rages and I never knew what it was I was supposed to do or not do. And it wasn't just loss of control - there seemed to be real enjoyment, almost like a thrill, in making me scared, in watching me crumple and hate myself. As an adult there are always these little games that I don't know if anyone would see as anything if they didn't know this dynamic. For example, last time I visited, my father and I went for a walk in the woods. He was walking very fast to keep me stumbling to keep up. It wasn't that he walks naturally fast and was being a bit thoughtless - it was much faster than his usual pace and he knew that I'd be slipping in the mud behind him. He glanced back with a sort of fake kind smile and laughlingly said "Are you ok?" And I just take it, because I'm still scared of him.

When I was a teenager my older sister was very ill in hospital (an illness that left her disabled and having to live near my parents, another whole layer of the story and my guilt feelings). One day during this time I was sitting quietly in my room, just reading or something, minding my own business. My dad came storming in, raging, that look of hatred on his face and roared at me "You lead a charmed life you do". Nothing had even been happening. He must have just been sitting there ruminating, his rage building up, angry that I wasn't the ill one, like that was in my control.

Just to give a couple of examples of my mother's responses when I needed support. When I was 13 the mother of one of my friends killed herself and when I told my mother she just said why would she kill herself she had that lovely big house - and that was it - never mentioned again. When I was 30 I had a brief breast cancer scare and I told my mother over the phone and she said nothing, literal silence, until I thought of something about her to ask. But knowing her I think she probably told other people about it along the lines of "Poor Raggycrow had a breast cancer scare. It was so worrying. Luckily I was there to support her."

So, when 2 years ago I actually did get breast cancer, I didn't tell them. I went through every kind of intense treatment for a year, which was very hard physically and emotionally. But no exaggeration to say that I was far far more stressed at the thought of my parents finding out than by the treatment or by the thought of dying.

So of course it's not my mum's fault that she's not psychic about me having cancer (although she did create an environment where I feel I can't tell her stuff like this) but I still feel resentment about having to be her free counsellor now. I'm still dealing with the aftermath of going through that. I would love to have a turn as the one being soothed and comforted.

Am I being too dramatic? I know there are far worse stories of abuse. I hope some of you can understand, if anyone makes it this far. Or if I'm making too much of the way they've been please be gentle in telling me!

I'm going to read some of your stories now for solidarity.

Wow @rollerbutterfly I haven't read your whole story yet, but yet again it strikes me how there seem to be certain scripts that have been handed out to all toxic mothers. My mother loves to use those words, that she's "giving support", it's almost tangible - the pleasure in hearing her own voice say that. Meanwhile you know that the poor person she's giving support to is probably being massively intruded upon and is probably having to do a lot of emotional labour listening to my mum monologue, presumably while they're going through something difficult already.

Sorry for your experiences. I can really relate.

No, @Raggycrow, you are not being over dramatic at all. Absolutely go NC, block her. What a lot you have been through.

I know the turn of the knife when they become visibly elderly and even frail, but they are still the same toxic parent. Protect the peace you have created for yourself.

Thanks so much @CeruleanDive 🙏I feel like crying reading your reply (in a good way.)

Why is it so hard?? It's like I can see all the programming they've done to me but still can't quite de-programme myself.

Mum still not talking to me. I've also muted all the chats we are on.

I mentioned on my previous message that my parents are divorced. It was not a good divorce. I was very young when it happened. And things happened like: my dad moved away, my mum restricted when he would see me to very minimal amounts. It was awful. Both got new partners and had new kids.

I'm starting to build a relationship with him now. Turns out he's alright. I don't doubt he has flaws but he's not critical of me. He's proud in fact. He lives a simple life and just emailed me today about something fun he was enjoying. It actually made me cry. There was no nastiness, no digs, nothing personal. Just an email saying he was thinking of me and what he'd been up to. A simple email that gave me a bit of joy.

He's been painted as this uncaring twat that hasn't put any effort in but actually he's very much like me in many ways and I wonder if that is what my mum hates?

@Raggycrow do your self a favour cut them loose. You owe them nothing, they bring no joy to your life. You are just a recepticle for her to pour her victimhood into. Your mum is emotionally dumping on you, it's very tedious my mum used to do it. My turning point was my husband being diagnosed with cancer and she still blathered on about utter bullshit never once asking how my husband was. It seemed drastic to cut them off, my only family (elderly frail parents and siblings) but the truth is they were a shit family and had never given an ounce of support.
Sometimes you just have to press the nuclear option and save yourself x

Thanks @binkie163 .Yes you are right. To be honest I'd even settle for them not bringing me any joy but not bringing me constant pain either!

For a while we could have surface-level, but mostly non-fraught, "conversations" where I sat with my phone listening to her monologue for a while, a scattering of guilt trips but more manageable. I had given up the idea of her being interested in my news (unless someone from outside the immediate family asks after me and then she will come to me in an info-mining frenzy). The situation is sad because it's the fact that she's upped the ante in trying to suck me back in that's causing me to think about NC. I worry that I'm being so selfish to consider it but I could never win anyway - may as well lean into the bad daughter role!

I'm so sorry about your husband. I hope his treatment was successful and that he's doing okay - and you too.

It is fascinating in a weird way how all these stories are so similar and how we all face similar roadblocks and turning points.

My parents are still well, but I have thought through the scenario of them becoming unwell and what I will do. Turns out I will do fuck all. People can think what they want. I have no relationship with aunts, uncles or cousins because the parents did not foster it when growing up and my aunts and uncles never seemed interested in me. So this will make it quite easy for me to not care about their opinions about when I will still keep my distances if the inevitable happens.

What gives me the chills is the scenario of me becoming ill and possibly dying before them. I have relatives and acquaintances who died relatively recently and much too young. Somehow family always ends up at the death bed and I DO NOT WANT MY PARENTS OT BROTHER THERE. I cannot say it loudly enough. I worry about me being incapacitated and not be able to make my wishes known or them not respecting my wishes. I'd rather die alone. I have actually thought about putting something in place for this scenario so I do not have to endure their presence should this happen.

Sorry this may seem very hypethtical and far fetched, but it's been on my mind.

"I have thought through the scenario of them becoming unwell and what I will do. Turns out I will do fuck all"
@Twatalert I think I love you😂
I don't know if the scenario you describe is far-fetched (hopefully it is!) but I have those same fears, especially as I don't know who else I can have as next of kin. But I also worry about them deciding what to do with my body if I die first - I don't want them to have access to it or be allowed to touch it. I know it's ridiculous, I'd be dead and wouldn't even know. I wonder about - if I knew I was dying is there a way I could get to somewhere remote and die where I'd never be found. There's probably more constructive planning for my future I should be doing.

@Raggycrow yup, same thought process. I want them to keep their grubby hands off my dead body. I really think I need to put something in place.

Next of kin. Oh my god yeah. I'm ashamed to say I once put down our admin assistant at work. Thank god nothing ever happened and she never received a call.

Now I put down my friend. I never asked her because I'm so ashamed. The question of next of kin is equivalent to the question 'what are you doing for Christmas?'. They just remind me like nothing else of the deep loneliness I feel due to the lack of a functioning family growing up and now.

@Twatalert yep...yep...to all you just said.

Sometimes I put friends as next of kin. If it's a pure box ticking thing I put a friend but change something in the phone number just to make sure they won't be getting a phonecall about me - it's just easier than inventing a person from scratch.

The other day someone suggested putting a priest down. A new low in feeling alone. (This is in the context of me not being religious or belonging to any church or having ever been to church - I can see how it would make sense if you were religious and this was a source of comfort and community in your life.) Actually now I'm typing this out the priest doesn't like seem like as bad an idea as I thought at the time.

I'm really sorry for what you're going through but it's very validating to hear that we all have these reactions and thought processes and worries after going through similar experiences. And maybe we can pick each other's brains going forward about how to put protections in for ourselves. It would be great if there was a service that offered legal advice specifically to people in this situation.

Yes and the shame thing is awful isn't it? And so unfair...this isn't our fault we don't deserve to be the ones with the shame and yet over and over again I'm fielding questions and feeling ashamed and embarassed.

Oh this is a good idea to just change one digit of their phone number. Or put down a priest. Im not religious either but the idea of a priest is quite comforting as I imagine he wouldn't leave me hanging lol.

The thing is my mother always wanted to be in the know of everything but she never truly cared about me.

Yeah because I was thinking if it did come to light somehow that I'd put the number down wrong it would just seem like I'd done it as a genuine mistake if it was nearly right but two numbers were switched around or something (like it would matter or anyone would think that much about it🙄pointlessly deceiving just like the narcissists.)

Yes same 😂the thought of the priest became quite comforting during the process of writing about him or her.

My mother is the same. I couldn't get her to be interested in anything I wanted to tell her but she'd prefer to lurk and read about the same thing in a secret diary or something.

I just realise my mother enjoys asking questions and digging for info that way but when I actually had something to share she wasn't interested.

When I got my first promotion at work in my 20s I told my parents. At first they didn't say anything and just looked at me and then they said 'and what does this mean?'. No congratulations, no interest as to what I did, no joy on my behalf. I could never get my head around it. I found it so hurtful that I never told them about my promotions ever again.

Same when I bought my apartment. No congratulations. No interest. Just low level resentment from my mother because it dawned on her I would never move 'back home'. Then I went a step further and got my cat...lol....my mother struggled to hide her disappointment and she actually tried to feign interest. It just showed that my life is elsewhere and I have no desire to move 'back home' and wouldn't visit as much or as long. And she doesn't like this.

I don't know what it is, but she abused me very badly and at the same time wanted to keep me nearby where they live. Make sense of it.

Ugh that's so horrible. I think my head could explode trying to just make it make sense with them. I don't understand bringing this little being into the world and then wanting to make life more difficult for them, gradually making this perfect little baby hate and abandon itself.

I suppose your mother wanted to keep you close to keep you under control. Even if she wasn't capable of loving you or enjoying your company, if you showed signs of breaking free from her that would mean she wasn't winning.

@dreamerz that's wonderful you are having this new-found relationship with your father and getting a second chance to be in each other's lives. Thank goodness you got to find out that he isn't who he was painted to be by your mother while there is still time to build a relationship. Yay a battle won aganst darkness.