March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

It's called triangulation. It's their usual tactic. Even though I grew up as the scapegoat and I still am my mother used to bitch to me about my father. Later she bitched about my niece (child), trying to get me on board with her views.

As an experienced scapegoat I can see through this because I grew up with her bitching about me to family and they fell for it.

The fact that she then tried to do the same with me just pushed me further away. There is no way of managing these people. They need to be kept at a distance.

@AttilaTheMeerkat@Twatalert
Not sure why it's tagged Attila as well as you twatalert, the wonders of technology.
I always said to friends, family and extended family about my mum's bitching and lying, she does it about everyone and I mean everyone, the min they leave the room it starts 😂its priceless to think that some truly believed she didn't bitch about them.
One of her carers said I was awful to my mum, I honestly laughed my arse off when I told her mum said she steals her money, jewelry, morphine, food and that I should call the police! That gave her a shock but these narcs are very convincing..... Bastards.

I don't remember my mother bitching about my brother. The only thing I remember she repeatedly criticised him for in his absence was that he doesn't visit the dentist regularly lol. Even so...I could say this was more like she was sharing something...as opposed to the bitching where it's all about she said he said and whatever awful thing someone did to her. I learnt early on that she lies and exaggerates and ppl do and say awful things to her all the time.

She bitched to me about SIL and how awful she and her parents and sister are and that her wonderful son deserves better. So I have dirt on her and could let my brother and SIL know how she truly feels lol.

Isn't it hilarious how they feign concern. It's just another manipulative tactic.

@rollerbutterfly it's why low contact didn't work for me, the door was always open.

Stop reading the mssgs as it gives her the attention she craves, it's hard but you are still giving her attention even if you don't reply. She is trying to engineer a response of any kind.

A lesson learned that all information is used as leverage for hoovering.

Shut her down treating you like a child, she won't like it but too bad. You have your own life, make your own decisions and don't need interference. Begging= bullying here.

This really resonates with me, the topless sunbathing - she did it in the back garden but the garden wasn’t private and the neighbours kids used to make fun of her. Naked round the house or with a dressing gown on that constantly gaped. She also said odd things to me about sex, I’ve mentioned this before but telling me (aged 11) that the reason my dad liked a certain shellfish was because they looked liked a vulva. Going „for a sleep“ every afternoon on holiday, I was in the adjoining room and had to go back and wait for them. My mum kindly informed me „you know when we go back to the room we are going to have intercourse“ . I wondered if she thought in a warped way it was sex education but like you it seemed aggressive, that’s a really good word.

@rollerbutterfly my god this is awful. I'm sorry she's treating you like that. She seems to get high on this. All this talk it's making you anxious and 'letting me help'. It really puts it on you...like you are the issue and she's tipptoeing around you... because you are a bit of an issue.

I'm sorry. I hope you manage to achieve your goal. It's easier once it's black and white, if you can manage it. It means no response at all is best once you are able to make this cut in your head and emotionally. I know it's incredibly difficult because of the guilt and all sorts of feelings.

Maybe come here before you are tempted to reply more than once. Get it all out and the pull to respond might ease already.

Hugs @rollerbutterfly . Know the feeling after a binge.

I’ve posted before about my narcissistic DM who is terminally ill. Her DSis (my aunt) has rung to say it’s not long now before she passes (although I was initially told that in April).

Aunt says that my DM has been talking to my DF (they divorced 40+ years ago, he is NC with me due to his manipulative wife driving a wedge) and that they are both in cohorts about what a terrible person I am. Aunt has spoken to my DF and he repeated the same - that I am a terrible person, a liar, and that I caused my DM’s cancer because we haven’t spoken for years. DF also told her I have been causing “all kinds of trouble in his family.” Apart from 4 family members, I haven’t seen the rest of his family for nearly a decade. I get on so well with all my relatives - there’s no drama whatsoever, some of us have lost regular contact over the years but still exchange Christmas/birthday cards. I have never had an argument or been rude to any family member.

Why are people so nasty? My parents haven’t spoken in many, many years but from what I’ve heard they are reunited in their hatred of me because I dared to say no to their behaviour?

Hugs @Airworld . There's always an innocent family member breaking their neck to give you the info.
What a set of pathetic people and all they deserve from you is a big fat up yours.
Don't let them get to you.💐

So sorry to read everyone’s posts. Just caught up with the thread but it amazes me how alike all these parents are in so many ways, perhaps with the odd variation. Really validates my memories and proves it’s not just me or my fault, so thank you for sharing. My Mum has a total obsession with health & check ups. It’s like if we’re ill it makes us weak, vulnerable and pathetic so she tries to give us all health anxiety all the time, and almost gets off on supporting anyone to any medical/hospital appointments etc.

My mum is like the biggest judgemental prude now (aged 75 & like Mary Whitehouse) but when she was younger, she use to go on & on about her sex life to me, sometimes about her teenage boyfriend from years ago and also my Dad and tell me how much she enjoyed sex generally and how Dad wasn’t any good at it anymore. Really explicit stuff! Started when I was about 14/15 at the time. Also when I was a young child (primary school age) she use to be almost theatrically loud when her and my Dad were at it, with the bedroom door wide open. She burnt Xmas dinner once when my brother/sister were very little, I was about 12 because she said she was too busy upstairs having sex. She repulses me totally!!

Plus she lies blatantly about us all and has even told GPs in the past she’s a victim of domestic abuse from my dad. He’s a complete wet blanket & enabler and the only violence we’ve ever experienced or witnessed is from her. Dad doesn’t even kill a fly! The problem is he’s never stood up to her. She’s also lies about all of us, things that don’t have even a grain of truth.

Honestly since going NC,I once again have peace to recover and some days, they don’t even cross my mind. I really recommend it to those struggling who haven’t tried it. LC in my opinion rarely works as Narcissists see them as an ongoing challenge, plus you are constantly on high alert waiting for the next text/call/ toxic curveball.

My only regret is not doing it aged 20. Makes me sad to see how long I let her torture me. I am also going to have a strict no talking/discussing Mum with my sister when I see her which isn't often. She dislikes Mum but is still in contact. Sometimes my sister has a habit of passing mum’s poisonous comments on when she slags her off. I really don’t need that in my life.

@Airworld your aunt is a flying monkey who is enjoying the triangulation and drama, don't take her calls as they will be uncomfortable and full of blame. The blame is not yours to carry, leave them to it, no contact is the only protection we have xx

@SkylarkDay it's amazing how deluded they are, they think they are fabulous and endlessly interesting, oblivious to the revulsion we feel towards them. My mum also pretended to be a paragon of virtue in later life, she was a serial shagger, like a bitch on heat.

Oh the lies are unreal. My mother went to my brothers wedding without her husband, had put him in a nursing home a few weeks before and then told anyoen who would listen she put him 'away' as he had been physically assaulting her. Other people who know the truth heard this and still nobody pulls her up on her lies. It is incredible but I guess if you go against her you will be next in the firing line.

Anyway my cousin was out with my mother the other night and I was told that he was not taking sides. Grand so. The following day I was out with his daughter and our kids and sure now shes got it in the neck for meeting me, I cant be trusted apparently, he has apparently witnessed me on videochat somehow drinking two full bottles of wine and opening a third bottle meaning my son doesnt go to school very often. The fact that my mother rang my sons school initially to moan about me and she said them exact words and the school told her is attendance is perfect has gone over everyones head it seems and the lies now are other people 'remembering' things that never happened.

I dont care. I have absolutely no interest or love for anyone who listens to her lies at this point. I will die alone before I ever talk to her again after what she has put me and my child through.

@rollerbutterfly I would only tell her what YOU are going to do. Not what behaviour you expect from her. Then these are YOUR boundaries which she'll have no control over.

Tell her you won't discuss your health with her anymore. Then that becomes your decision.

Now I have been conversations with my mum the thread is starting to unravel, it’s like the fog has been lifted and the more I talk to my mum and the more she tells me she was joking about things the more I remember other stuff. Spoke to sis and asked if her my had been talking about me to which she replied ‘I don’t want to get involved’ . I’m feeling betrayed but I don’t know why I think anyone would be more loyal to me. I feel as though I am the one over reacting and taking things to seriously. That my mum is basically brushing things off with me ignoring my hurt and anger and then bitching about me to everyone else and no one is standing up for me. There is a family gathering this weekend and I don’t want to go, but I feel like I want to be honest and tell them all something but I don’t now what/how.

Do not go to that family gathering particularly if you don’t want to go anyway. Giving them a piece of your mind does not and would not work, they are immune to such and will only believe their own warped narrative.

Thank you for the reply. I feel so awful. Angry, rejected, rage and isolated. When will it stop :(

@Supamum3 I agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat By interacting with them, you purely give them ammunition to twist to themselves and others. If angry, to be fair the worst thing you can do to get back at them is to ignore, show disinterest & total indifference to them and their social gatherings. Definitely wouldn’t go. Also siblings will often pass on things or sometimes seem like they are betraying you, but they’re damaged too and often still trying to please the narcissist lynchpin/abuser in the family (often the narcissist mother/parent) It’s a complicated web of emotions but pretty stereotypical as everyone’s stories show here. Not going to lie, initially the pulling away and finding your strength can be a slog & emotional rollercoaster, but it will get better the more you withdraw from them and you finally find some peace to work on yourself. x

Forgot to change my username to @StrawberryTeddybear - ah well doesn't matter now!!

Thanks @SkylarkDay . This part is hard and feels awful, even though I knew on some level that speaking out wouldn't change anything, there was a tiny part of me that hoped they would realise. I thought I'd feel better getting things off my chest but I feel worse at the confirmation of narcissm/abuse/gaslighting. You are right that it is so complex and heavy, and you are all spot on that their stories are the only ones that matter and what they believe no matter what I say. I am on a waiting list for therapy but in the meantime its difficult to navigate. This thread is a lifeline for me.