March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Parentalalienation it's all about control, isn't it. Mine have the phone number of a friend of mine. I trust this friend completely and she knows my situation but I'm expecting they'll contact her and feign concern.

They know I'm perfectly fine. There is no way they don't try to get information from my niece (still a child) who I speak to a lot. Or my brother who knows I speak with my niece. They know I haven't died. They just want to get me to say something.

Years ago I actually spent a night in A&E with a nasty infection. I didn't have a smartphone still and didn't let anyone know. I told them later and yet a while later I retold the story to someone in their earshot and said 'when I was in hospital...'. my mother got so angry and asked in this angry voice 'WHEN were you in hospital?'. It was bizarre but she thought I hadn't told her about a hospital stay and she felt left out lol. It sums it up. No concern for me. She just got angry because she thought someone knew something she didn't.

When I was to become an aunt my brother and SIL told me over the phone because I already lived far away. A day later they drove to my parents. It's a 5hr drive. To tell them. I was on the phone as they were going to break the news and my SIL said very innocently 'Twatalert, you know what's coming'. Yep you guessed it. My mother got angry because I knew before her.

I don't know why I'm telling this now. I guess her anger confused me at the time and I can only now make sense of it.

Narcs just gather intel about other people. Information is a hot commodity in their eyes.

It's processing all the trauma. When you put up the barriers and stop getting new trauma and being retraumatised, you have the space to deal with everything from earlier in your life.

@Tiddlesem yes, I too was treated like an idiot. One who couldn't do anything and definitely couldn't learn things. My brother just accepted the role I got assigned from birth. My mother used to tell stories how horrible I was as a baby and young child. How I didn't sleep, knocked stuff off shelves etc. and they all laughed as things were retold over and over again. And how my brother was an absolute angel.

What she didn't tell people was how she took off her pink slipper and hit me whilst I was in my cot. Because I remember. Or how she threatened that she'd get the rag we cleaned the floor with and that I'd have to use this as my duvet.

My brother had hobbies and received supplies for these. He had swimming lessons and exams. I even went to those but watched from outside the pool. I was maybe 8 so not even that young. No idea why I wasn't worthy for any.
My father would sit in his room and spend time with him and talk. He'd show him DIY. Later he had a car, which I realised much later he couldn't have run by himself. I'm sure there was loads more.

I was just the maid who couldn't be trusted to put a pot in it's correct spot in the cupboard after drying the dishes. They all were very mysoginistic too. It was soul destroying. I still suffer from very low confidence.

I wonder how many of us were sidelined/scapegoated by mothers who favoured their sons?

I had two older brothers, both of whom were bought pretty much whatever they asked for while I got nothing. Similarly, they were never expected to do chores (it was always me). One brother in particularly would hit me on a daily basis and nothing was ever done about it. The old 'boys will be boys' excuse and ignoring all the bruises.

Their smug satisfaction at my low-status in the pecking order couldn't have been made plainer.

I have days I come in here to vent and read and acknowledge others go through the same and show my support and then I come in and read how others have been treated like me and it hurts. It hurts all over again.

Last weekened I did something nice for the community. It was a charitable thing is all I will say I dont want thanks or praise and definitely not recognition because sure then I would be labelled by the family as an attention seeker but I did one thing, I did it very low key and I got rewarded with lovely messages, private ones on social media not anything to do with here and nothing I would allow someone to thank me for publicly on social media and my immediate reaction was how nice people can be. And I had my head in this lovely fuzzy cloud of warmth and comfort thinking how nice it is to be appreciated. Then the negatives hit and I started thinking what the family would say about it. Nothing we do will ever be nice or kind or right. We will always be shamed and put down and the more I thought the sadder I got. I went from being on a high to the lowest ebb of low and I know I dont deserve to feel that way and I know it is them that have made me feel this way but it will always hurt.

None of us deserve this. None of us ever did. We have to live with the legacy of the childhood cards we have been dealt sadly. I wish everyone strength x

I dip in and out but name change a lot. I've been NC since 2019, after a lifetime of abuse and never being good enough - and no longer wanting to hear it.

Mother is currently ill, golden child is doing all the attention seeking care.

Dear God, the abuse I am getting online from extended family! And no point in blocking as they send it through random friends. I'm not replying and I'm trying to grey rock etc but I just want to scream at everyone what they are really like!

I watch The Repair Shop on tv where people bring in family items to be repaired that mean a lot to them. It actually shocks me each and every time when the person says how loved their dad was and how nice a man he was and how proud of them he would have been if he could have seen the item back to its former glory. Imagine being taken aback by someone saying how lovely a man their dad was and how they miss him? I can’t relate to it at all. Mine was an aggressive man that would have a fight in an empty house, was never wrong about anything and didn’t allow any opinions that didn’t agree with his opinions. It’s only now that I see his behaviour as being a personality disorder and actually it wasnt “just him” it was abuse. @daffodilandtulip I think not replying to texts etc is the best way. Anything you say just results in more and more bile and continues the drama. Extended family have no right to pass judgement on you as they haven’t walked in your shoes and as adults they should realise that. That is a lack of emotional maturity on their part. I would however tell any random friends that you don’t want any more messages passed on. Not one. Some people will know what they are like, but for an easy life they won’t acknowledge it. I was surprised by the relatives that knew what my dad was like and admitted after his death that they had seen flashes of his temper. Not one of them however would have pulled him up for it at the time.

@Sicario I also have 2 much older brothers, around 20 years older than me. They have always been completely inappropriate in their behaviour - bullying, putting down and aggressive body language. However my parents made me adjust my behaviour to accommodate theirs! Reflecting on this has made me extremely angry in the last few years. Imagine asking a ten year old to be polite and respectful to a 30 year old man who is bullying them - name calling, imitating the way I speak etc?!

Whenever I got upset my mum always said ‘he is your older brother and you should respect him. You make such a drama out of nothing by overthinking everything’.

Not once did my parents call out my brothers behaviour. I was an easy target and much younger but I can see now tht they were awful to everyone. They still are so I went NC with them a few years ago.

I think there is an unrealistic expectation on girls and women in families. On the flip side many sons act in a way that is ridiculous with no objection by parents. If I had called my brothers names, imitated them or made fun of them there would have been serious consequences by my parents.

As a parent myself to both genders I am very mindful of equality and my children treating each other with respect.

@Genuineweddingone I'm sorry that your positive experience of doing something nice and having folks be appreciative was marred by the thoughts about your family. Whatever it was you did, it sounds as though you got the right 'usual' response from those who knew about it in your community.

Oh I do need help from this group.

My parents divorced when I was very young. I have minimal relationship with my dad. My mum hates him. It was an awful divorce. It was extremely traumatic. Now I'm in my 40s we are starting to build a relationship.

My mum remarried and they had another kid. Still together.

My sibling is very clearly the favourite. They get lots of help from mum and their dad. Especially childcare. My sibling sucks up all the time. And they view my sibling as perfect in every way. I get on well with sibling.

I am the black sheep. They dislike everything about me. Im simply not good enough. My looks. My job. My house. My husband. My kids.

We cycle round and round where they get cocky and say something more confident and awful to me. "Gosh you'll need to move soon as you can't stay in that ghastly house forever" "your problem is you are fat" "you never really met our expectations in terms of career" etc etc

I call them out

Then I get "well you upset me too" "I can't say anything right I'm always biting my tongue" etc.

We get frosty

They won't apologise. My stepdad gets annoyed I upset mum. How dare I. My mum says "I have feelings too" he basically hasn't spoken beyond small talk in several years.

Then slowly we go back to normal, if you can call it normal.

Each time it's a bit worse though so now they won't even come in my house for example. I get anxious around them. The have come here in past and not even taken coat off. And I always need to clean. They once looked after my house on holiday and they were extremely intrusive. And boy did they bitch about me.

My mum thinks she can make up for this by offering to do things for me. Pick up kids etc. like it's equal. The balance of help is about 90% my sibling, 10% me. They also all meet up secretly socially without my family.

If I call them out it sort of gets so frosty that the offers they have provided might get taken away.

I'm so pissed off that she views me simply as a portal to see grandchildren. She certainly doesn't like me or enjoy my company but wants to be viewed as a great granny by others. We only really see each other if she's watching kids or there is a family birthday.

We are on a frosty period currently and I told her how I feel and I got told to stop it as it will cause an argument. I'm not allowed to talk feelings. If I do, hers trumps mine.

I want to add.. I live in a nice house in a lovely place, my kids are awesome, I earn 60k a year, I'm a bit tubby but I'm not too bad (size 12-14) My husband is annoying sometimes but he's a great husband and an excellent father overall. Im successful at life. But yes I don't meet their expectations.

@dreamerz so you do all the work in this relationship, which is 'just getting over anything your parents ever say or do'.

Your post is actually triggering for me because I recognise the cycle. It's worked for so long that they cannot ever imagine you'll break it by walking away and no longer accepting your boundaries being violated. Boundaries, heck, just your rights as a human.

They probably won't change, I'm sorry, so this relationship will forever serve them and remain painful for you. Your kids witness all this. Don't ever think you can shield them from it. You cannot. So they learn this behaviour too. They are exposed to the cycle too. Do what's good for you and your immediate family. Probably not including your mother.

@dreamerz i too can relate to that cycle you describe and it’s absolutely mentally and emotionally draining. I can relate a lot to where you describe being a portal to her grandkids so she can appear as a great grandmother, it’s disgusting isn’t it? Also, I found the fact that no issue was ever resolved, no accountability, no acknowledgement of her role in an argument was starting to affect me mentally, and physically. I started therapy and am now NC. I’m not going to lie, it was a very difficult process but totally necessary. I simply couldn’t expose my kids to her/their madness. I’m finally in a space where I can heal and I hope you can get to that place too. You seem to have a lovey life, how dare those horrible people put you down, it’s disgusting. None of them deserve you, or your precious kids.

@dreamerz cut your losses with your so-called mum and the rest of her household that is no way to be treated. No way at all.
I hope you do and I hope you can have a relationship with your dad. If not there's no loss.
You have a good life without all the negatives hold your head high and like your self and being kind with yourself starting with shutting out negativity.x

Have to come on to vent.

I have been avoiding speaking to my mum for a while, there's so much I want to say but equally feel there is no point. There has been a family situation that has meant I am having to see my mum often and I just hate the awkwardness - though I do realise that it probably only me who feels awkward. But anyway, I decided to call her before the next visit and get some things of my chest about our abusive childhood and some of the decisions she made that still affects me and she was very 'well that's in the past, you have to move on and stop letting it bother you' and some people just get over these things - she is referring to her expartner beating her black and blue most weekends and trashing our house.

I then asked her to stop making mean comments about my appearance and she said I was too sensitive and can't take a joke, I asked her not to 'joke' about some of my lifestyle choices especially around my kids and she gave every reason as to why its perfectly ok to tease and make jokes with family and its up to me to brush it off.

My family have been 'joking' about me for as long as I can remember, I have an eating disorder and have had low self esteem for as long as I can remember and I finally piecing together some of the reasons why. I was so nervous to say it to her because she has a way of dismissing me and not letting me speak, I even had to tell her to stop talking and listen to me several times, I felt brave and strong enough to say that it upsets me, I felt that I needed to make sure I said it out loud to instead of holding in that anger. I don't think she will stop but at least now she know her jokes are not welcome.

I am proud of myself.

I am finally seeing her as the bully she is, that she would make me feel bad to make herself feel good and make my siblings laugh and goad me.

God that hurts to write.

She has had a bad relationship with her own mum for years and she has spent my childhood slagging her off for being distant and selfish and it has finally hit me that she is the same as her and has been treating me like she has been treated all these years. Watching her tiptoe around my gran is embarrassing and I see the sly digs she makes at my mum, in fact for years I felt sorry for her. Then I became caught up in this weird dynamic where my gran would call me often and purposely not call my mum, they'd each be communicating through me and I felt as though I couldn't tell each of them no. I have since distanced myself from my gran now she is talking to mum and mum will always update me about her which confuses the fuck out of me.

I feel better having got things off my chest, though there is no solution its all helping me come out of the fog.

Not sure if I am even asking anything, but I find this thread so helpful and I feel so validated reading our stories - though I am sad this is happening to us, I'm glad to be part of this community.

@StrawberryTeddybear remove yourself from the family situation, it is harming you emotionally. Your mum/family don't care and don't feel awkward. Classic triangulation (you and gran) stop engaging. It is a game for her and you are still playing. The only person who can stop this is you. Put yourself first, you have no obligation to be the butt of your families jokes and unpleasantness. You can not recover from a toxic family while you remain actively in it. Venting is good but taking action is better xx

In case it's of any use to anyone...

I went NC with my entire Family Of Origin about 6-7 years ago. I didn't consciously plan to do so, I just did it.

On the day it happened, I dropped in to visit my mother (who had been a violent abusive nightmare throughout my childhood). Upon arrival at her house, found my highly toxic sister there with her MIL. It was absolutely obvious they had been talking about me. My sister couldn't get out of there fast enough.

It was like I had a sudden realisation. I said to my mother "I'm sick to death of being slagged off", and left.

Never went back. Never spoke to any of them again. Had caller ID on my home phone so never picked up. Then I moved house and nobody knows where I live.

The healing process took years. My mother is now dead, as is one of my brothers. I don't miss any of them, dead ones, alive ones, and I have absolutely no regrets except I should have done it a lot sooner.

Going NC isn't easy because of all the guilt and FOG and it takes a lot of hard work (therapy is great, but only with a therapist who understands and doesn't try to encourage reconciliation). I have learned so much and I feel thoroughly healed now.

Solidarity to everyone who is dealing with toxic family. They're not worth a second of your time.

Just in case this is of any interest to anyone here, James O'Brien on LBC is currently discussing narcissists, with particular reference to narcissistic mothers.
This is the link to the live feed, I think you may have to sign in to hear it online, though.
www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/

Hello I hope it’s ok to pop on. I have had a very difficult relationship with my mother all my life and my father has totally backed her up (as a teen he recognised her behaviour as she used to be so spiteful and he told me to move away for uni) but now he backs her up.
my mother has ill health (depression and unexplained pain) so I have been empathetic for years. She spoils all happy occasions (wedding, birthdays of my kids etc). She told me as a young teen I had a chance to get a Saturday job in a local place As they took on people with Down syndrome. She tries to get my father to get my husband to side with them but he tells them he always supports me. The last straw at Christmas was she said for us not to visit as dad was asleep but we called down as we knew if we didn’t there would be hell to pay. My dad wasn’t asleep so Boxing Day she rang and said my brother had to go to bed as his separated and didn’t have his kids (he never bothers with them) and me visiting ruined it for him as I had mine with me. This is untrue - she makes things up all time.

anyway I text her from holiday early January and she didn’t reply weeks passed and no Contact and sadly we had a death on dh side and they were awful to me at the funeral. So here I am six months on and no contact with my family only one sibling who is dealing with things mental health wise due to how they feel and I’m grateful to have them.

I feel your pain, it happened to me too xxxxx

@rollerbutterfly I was always embarrassed/ashamed by my mum's nudity. My dad wasn't as bad but certainly no modesty. As if any child wants to see their parents naked. My brother and I grew up extremely prudish as a result. In my 60's I am still offended by nudity. As a teenager being told not to be interested in boys by my mum with it all hanging out, still disgusts me now. I always felt my mum's nudity was aggressive [odd I know but it was forced on me] it was attention seeking, look at me, look at me, she would sunbathe topless when she had an audience on beach or my brothers friends, my teenage boyfriends.
There has been a thread running on MN by a lady in her 40's wanting to wear thong bikini on family holiday in front of her teenage son! It made me cringe.

I'm so sorry, @rollerbutterfly. That was so utterly wrong of your father, and absolutely vile of him. I imagine it must have been so scary and confusing as a little girl.

Thank you @binkie163 your words are painfully true. I absolutely need to do just that. Its horrible

The part about your mum trying to get your father to get your husband to side with them really resonated with me. My mum has been doing the same at every visit, she has even tried to do it several times with my kids.
NC sounds like it is working for you, I’m
happy for you going NC is not an easy feat.
Strength to you xx