March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Twatalert I totally get how you feel. I had this when mine tried to call me a while back on my Dad’s mobile phone that he never even uses. Had to block that too. I see it as them tugging their fishing line to see if they’ve still got us on the hook in some form or other. It’s like a cat playing with a mouse. Really frustrating because as @Richandstrange says you’re mostly coasting along happily not thinking about them, then it’s like a big punch in the stomach from nowhere, reminding you of all their abuse and behaviour. sadly I think they do it to torment and intimidate too.

I'm glad I came here today then! This message really triggered me because when I was at uni they'd be all concerned that I'd arrive there safely after every time I went home and I had to call as soon as I got in, not a minute later. I felt under so much pressure to ease their alleged worries that I might be dead in the woods.

Later, just before smartphones I once returned home after a day out to 12 missed calls from them. I genuinely thought someone had died, called back immediately and got just so angry when I realised nothing had happened and they called this many times to see if I was ok.

I don't know why they pretend to be concerned. I genuinely can't imagine they are after all the issues my childhood caused me and the many times they shut me down when I tried to bring something up. But they pulled this all my life...'we are just worried about you', 'whats wrong with asking', etc.

@Twatalert in my opinion its a control thing they do to knock our confidence. By keep asking if you’re ok and expecting you to constantly check in, they are re-enforcing our role as pathetic child who can’t survive independently, we’re not allowed to grow up and be respected as our true adult selves. Also in the case of my Mum, she likes to paint me as mentally vulnerable to everyone else because I won’t dance to the tune of the dysfunctional family. So this caring patronising behaviour from them is to try and project that weak, not coping character onto us. Same thing Victorian men did to their wives so they could get them popped away in an asylum. It’s all part of a control agenda

Probably so they can tell themselves and others that they have tried and 'have no idea what possesses Twatalert'.

Yep, also very familiar, fairly sure my menopause will be being blamed for my sudden refusal to be a good girl and pretend everything is fine 😕 Hope you're managing to shake it off and not let it consume you, know it's bloody hard though

@Richandstrange same here! My sister said my Mum has told people I’m obviously struggling with the menopause, although other family members including my aunt has said to my face she fully understands why I can’t take anymore!

Hope you’re ok @Twatalert Things like this do really knock you off your feet for a day or so, be kind to yourself and block however she contacted you. I’ve even put unopened letters/cards in the bin from my mum, as I know she has a knack of finding my weak spots and really upsetting/triggering me.

This is all very true. This is so sick to use concern to control someone and knock their confidence. This is exactly how it feels for me. Obv no point in telling them because these people don't care about my feelings.

Exactly the conclusion I've come to about my mother, she encouraged/created both emotional and, to a degree, financial dependence and made me afraid I couldn't cope without her. And yet, 12 months on from our relationship falling apart and I'm coping just fine, apart from when she pops up and disturbs my peace!

Yes I have never once felt my parents see me as an actual adult.

I think my parents are still in the process of realising that their usual tactics haven't worked for over a year now. They still haven't understood that this relationship is over. So they keep trying to weasel their way in. I always thought that on some level, just subconsciously, they know that they fucked up on a grande scale, that they are the reason I moved far away in my mid 20s and that they are responsible for my issues. They just can't admit it to themselves. Denial is a sweet thing.

There has always been this expectation that you call in regular intervals. My mother probably thinks this is what I should be doing and that I owe it to her to tell her every few weeks that I'm ok, when they never really cared if I'm ok.

@Richandstrange It is. My mum always wanted us to be dependent on her for everything. Like a child that’s not allowed to grow up. Even when my sister and I first moved out of home, she insisted on buying a small house that we had to rent from her. She’s always struggled since we both married and have our own homes/lives/families. Dependence on her meant she kept control of our lives, she remained the centre of all family dynamics where she could happily play us all off against each other and treat us like her own personal puppet show.

@Twatalert definitely don’t tell them. I think they’re looking to provoke you so they can play the ‘we’re only concerned’ card and re-enforce/project their view that the problem is totally with you, when it’s obviously not. The best thing you can do with a narcissist is to ignore them, show indifference and not engage. It takes their power away.

@SkylarkDay correct, I cannot tell them or respond. I have no reason and would hate to give into my mother's demand.

I am a bit concerned of the follow ups, any calls, and another call if I don't answer etc.

In a way I'm enjoying it a bit too because I know she's seething and has become less restrained with age. She will need an outlet for my disobedience and will use other people for that, so someone will be reminded of what she's like which makes it hard for her to hide her true self.

My mum has also sent messages back via varying flying monkeys that I’m totally cut out the Will!!! Honestly anyone would think she’s Alan Sugar with millions!! She could never pay me enough to put up with this crap and it’ll all go on a care home anyway as none of my siblings will have her when she’s totally decrepit. Plus my husband and I don’t blooming need it anyway. Her money has always felt like a control tool.

@Twatalert i understand the stress of being on high alert for the next attack. I’ve blocked everything I can but still dread she might turn up on the driveway sometime even though I’m an hour and a half away. I put nothing past her!!

@Twatalert you are right, people do see them as they really are. As you say age makes them less careful at masking. I was so shocked when my Aunt said she fully understood why I had to do it and named other family members who understood and specifically said it wasn’t my fault.

These ghastly people will go to bizarre lengths to force any kind of contact. I had an absolute cracker a couple of days ago - a message disguised as being in search of one of my kids, sent via my dead brother's facebook account. Not that the dead brother ever used facebook as he was computer illiterate.

Trying to block these buggers is like playing whack-a-mole.

Well I'm kicking myself, I never used the menopause get out of jail card. I would have enjoyed screaming like a looney 'fuck off you barking mad, batshit bastard's, I'm menopausal and can legally commit murder due to hormonal distress' then slam phone down. I am utterly terrifying when aggravated lol. It would have been so much better than the weak trying to explain how I felt and reason with them.
It must be international hoovering week. I honestly think some of it is boredom, lack of anyone to engage with and needing attention. They just keep repeating old patterns hoping to catch you out. Sending strength and solidarity to all xx

@Sicario no level they won't stoop to, they have zero shame, zero common decency and nothing is too inappropriate to get their needs met. I do wonder how we not only survived but turned out so well x

Totally agree with @binkie163 " I honestly think some of it is boredom, lack of anyone to engage with and needing attention. "

I was thinking this to myself while catching up on the thread. These toxic people life empty, pitiful lives. Nobody likes them. The "friends" they choose are either weak, or vulnerable, or compliant for whatever reason. They are boring, and bored, and live in a parasitic, vicarious way.

A loud and clear FUCK OFF is the only way.

I hope its okay for me to join this thread as I feel in desparate need of some solidarity. Feeling so low and anxious. I have posted previously but with 2 young children wasnt able to keep posting. Growing up I was the scapegoat/black sheep of my family. I am now 32 with my 2 daughters of my own. This was when I really started piecing everything together. I always thought it was just my father who was hypercritical, Shaming, ignored my existence once I became a teenager. But I've realised the extent of the abuse that I suffered due to all my siblings in different ways. Its as if I had a completely different childhood to the rest of them.

I have 4 siblings. I maintain a distance from my father for my own emotional protection. Being around him causes me huge anxiety and my self esteem had been affected so badly over the years and I'm just starting to piece it all back together due intensive therapy.

I am experiencing severe acute anxiety at the moment with my mother's anniversary mass upcoming. She died when I was 10 years old.
What I am finding difficult is seeing that all my siblings still have relationships with father and it makes me feel like there must be just something wrong with me if they can maintain relationship with him. There's other layers of the story involved for me including an incident whereby my father thought I was his girlfriend (he was drunk in bed) and said things that he wanted to do to me sexually (thinking i was his girlfriend at the time).

Has anyone else experienced this sense of lonliness? I can't shake this feeling of "it must be me".

@Tiddlesem Don't doubt yourself like that please. How you feel sounds completely valid and the sexual stuff your father said is horrific.

Most siblings don't have the same parents. I think everyone here can relate to that. It's terrible being the scapegoat and the outcast because in everyone's eyes you are the problem because your other siblings apparently don't have the same issues. That's not the truth though. You all simply did not have the same parents but were treated differently. I can only advise you listen to your gut instinct that something was off and not succumb to any gaslighting.

A huge part of healing is accepting that other family may never see what you see. Often they won't see it because they have not received the same poor treatment, so how would they know what it was like growing up like you did? Sometimes siblings have seemingly better relationships with parents, but they may be enmeshed and the relatonship may not be healthy, but they may not see it or may not have the strength to separate themselves from these parents.

Yes to the deep sense of loneliness. For me it stems from early childhood, because I was emotionally neglected and abused, so I have this huge void in me. It's the little girl I was that just wanted to be loved.

@Tiddlesem it's not you, it is your family. I am the least anxious person you could ever meet unless near my family, they trigger acute anxiety, panic, loathing and deep resentment.
We never know anyone else's experience or motivation in families. My 2 siblings still retained close bonds to vicious narc mum who died last year and still run around for my dad who they openly dislike. Alcoholic parents so our childhoods were bleak. Money is a huge motivator, guilt, obligation, fear etc. my siblings still live within a few miles of the family home, I moved abroad!
It is also hard work keeping boundaries and low/NC it's not an easy option, your siblings may find it easier to go along, in denial.
All we can do is what is best for us only, your dad sounds an absolute bastard.
Loneliness is one of the hardest emotions, it is so crushing but it will pass. Breaking free of toxic families is hard, it isn't an overnight switch, once I went NC I never looked back xx
Edited to say that toxic parents deliberately put siblings against each other, play favourites and Scapegoats, it's all about control. Your siblings are behaving out of fear of the scapegoat spotlight on themselves xx

@Tiddlesem its definitely not you. The sexual things your father said to you are utterly horrific and not normal. I feel damaged enough because my Mum always shared info about her sex life, both past and present with me. That was horrific enough, but what you had is utterly disgusting!

Also Parents like ours purposely treat their children differently, plus the children end up carry their damage in different ways. Also most narcissistic parents love playing the children off against each other, whilst they sit in the middle pulling all the strings. Another reason I definitely had to go NC again is because my Mum loves toxic stirring between us all. She especially likes to do it to my sister and I. I know going forward it’s better for my relationship with my sister if I don’t have any contact with my Mum. Parents like ours are very manipulative and good at sowing mistrust amongst their children. They don’t want a child forming a happy bond with a sibling as it weakens their position. My Mum has always been like an anxious jealous friend when my sister and I have done things together. We get constant calls or texts from her.

Yes to the feelings of loneliness, I think it comes from the neglect and lack of emotional support/love we had as children. Emotionally we were orphans and had to deal with everything by ourselves.

Some siblings never walk away from their abusive parents but turn into their helpers whilst being abused. I resented my brother for sticking by our parents and never speaking up for me, but he never received the treatment I received. My mother instrumentalised him early on and pitted us against each other. He's older than me, so when I was an inconvenient teen for her and slammed a door out of anger she got him to remove the door to my room. I remember how I felt. It wasn't the lack of the door, it was the realisation, once again, that I was alone in this as she'd pull everyone else on her side.

But she also abused my brother in this incident. He just can't see it. Like me he just wanted to be in mother's good books, as did I, and for him it meant doing what was expected and it meant that there was no room in him for me.

Today to the outside it looks like they have a great relationship, but I noticed he's become more irritated and snaps a lot ever since I stopped toeing the line. It will just mean my parents are hyper nervous because they lost control over me and they will cling onto him more. Like an anxious friend, as someone said above. It must be suffocating, but I am glad I am out of this.

Urgh @Twatalert my parents did something similar not long before I went completely non contact. I can't remember what we were doing for the weekend but we were busy and didn't have time for their drama. So they phoned, didn't get us, then texted something like hope you're doing ok etc etc I texted back about being okay & hope they have nice weekend. We then got repeated phone calls every 5 mins until I got fed up and turned my phone off. Then they emailed. I got into work on the Monday and they had tracked down my work direct line, phoned that, and emailed me at work. They didn't actually have anything to say of any interest, just demanding to be dominating my attention. I'm glad I went no contact and blocked them on everything.

Hi all, thanks so much for all the thoughtful responses. So eye opening to read and very sad. I have found myself feeling so angry recently which I think is good because I have been carrying such a huge amount of shame but I think I'm starting to realise that that doesn't belong to me that belongs to them. That there is nothing wrong with me like they tried to make me feel.

I definitely relate to the pitting children against each other. Hence why i hate being around all of them because it feels like im back to being a child who has no one to protect them. I was the butt of the joke and an easy target. My father wouldn't even engage with me when my older sisters were around. I was invisible.

Money is a huge motivator as my father is a very wealthy man. I definitely believe that's why most of them tolerate a lot of it because he is not an easy person to be around.

It's just very sad because I was a very capable child. Very athletic and sporty. I loved to sing, was musical and did well in school but all he ever did was criticise and I no longer do anything other than look after my children.