March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

My family didn't understand my job either. They made no effort, to the extent that my elderly granny explained to them how my job worked! (She knew cause she'd asked and listened).
I'd missed that you're an accountant. Solidarity about year end and no wonder your blood is boiling with your sister's whinging. I'd grey rock her if she starts again 'yes year end is such a busy time, good thing you only work in January/September/whenever the year end falls.' She will either take the huff and stop whinging at you, or she won't be listening and you can just rinse and repeat.

F

@Parentalalienation oh I definitely will do that!!!! I know then it will be something else i 'dont understand' of course. The saying if I have been to Tenerife she has been to Elevenerife' fits well. I was around a horrible person some years ago the same. Always either the victor or the victim once they were centre of attention. I wonder if my sister has tendancies like my mother actually. My brother certainly does.

@Genuineweddingone christ if your sister elevates herself any higher she will get a nosebleed. The busy Olympics was my cue to drop the phone, call next year when things calm down, that always had them stuttering as I hung up, bloody wankers 😂😂

I actually internally cringe sometimes listening to her which is why I rarely miss the silent times.

@binkie163 you never upated us further on the dog! How is the little darling?

If your sister elevates herself any higher she'll get a nosebleed.
I'm laughing so much at this, thank you!
I do wonder if narc tendencies are genetic or if it's learned behaviour when it repeats in the next generation.

@Genuineweddingone ahhh he is a bit shell shocked but settling himself in. He gets easily over excited, loves toys, swimming pool, 5 acres to explore and play in. Miniature bull terrier so maximum dog, minimum space. Our older girl is setting him a few rules. He is a rescue so starting from scratch manners wise bless him but totally adorable. We lost our old fella 8 weeks ago and this little stick of dynamite looks so like him but 1/4 of the size. I can adjust/tolerate anything with animals, just people I struggle with.

Oh she will elevate ffs! Honestly I have always cheered her on. Never put her down at least nor my brother but when it comes to me its like game season.

@binkie163 give me an animal over a human any day!

Levitate I meant!!!!

Hi everyone. I'm a long-time lurker and have posted once or twice but in all honesty I've been avoiding the thread as sometimes I just find it all too much and just pretend it isn't happening. It all flared up again last week though as I witnessed my mother's behaviour to her daughter/my sister who is only 15 (I'm 33 and she's adopted with my mother's newest husband - sure she just did it so she had someone to control as we'd all left home and wanted to 'save' her). They were at my house and my sister came in from school (which she hates, struggles emotionally and SEN from foetal alcohol syndrome). She slumped onto my sofa and my mum had such a good at her 'don't you come in here like that, miserable as usual' etc. Her voice was raised and it made my 18 month old cry. She then told my sister that her expression was making him cry and it's her fault. She later said to my daughter (3) 'oh look she's back, miss grumpy' etc about my sister. I find it so triggering as when we were teenagers she always mocked our emotions, especially my other adult sister who has now gone NC. I shamefully didn't challenge her and I've been feeling sick about ever since.
Anyway it's got me thinking about the reality of NC/extremely low C again but I just don't know how to do it when she lives so nearby. We live in a really small close-knit community. She drives past my house 2x a day so I can't even lie about being out.
I've let her in more lately as I've been very poorly (better now) and she helped with childcare when I was in hospital. Also my eldest has started a dance class and I don't have anyone to look after my youngest while I take her so she's been doing that which I absolutely hate myself for. That's stopping going forward but I feel so guilty that I'll have to take DD out of dance.
So much more to it all obviously but does anyone have experience of no or extremely low contact when you live so close and are likely to see eachother regularly (driving, in the shop etc)? I'm scared of what she might do.

I'm back again on the thread under aa different name :(

Sorry for the upcoming rant, just need to get it out and I feel people on this thread just get it.

I felt me and my DS are the forgotten family members. I know Dsis relationship with mum is toxic and codependant. I know mum feels she has to see them or risks Dsis threatening to take them away. However mum sees them all the time, she helps Dsis with childcare even though she's not a single parent and I am. I feel like I'm sitting on the sidelines struggling like I always have and mum will just sit back and watch.

I finally snapped the other day and said to mum. You do have another daughter and grandchild. She didn't like that and became defensive.

Mum has said my son is hard to look after. Not because of behaviour because he is a good boy. But because he wants your attention (wtf). Poor boy just wants to chat with his nanny.

Also on top of that my parents are massive reform supporters and that does not aline with my beliefs. They are the biggest racists. They hate "fat" people. They always comment on my weight and I'm a size 10! Always make me feel shit about myself and tbh I'm surprised I didn't grow up to have an eating disorder. Although I do comfort eat I guess.

I just feel so angry at them. Why couldn't I have kind, supportive, helpful parents. I'd do anything for my child. I love them but don't like them as people. It's such a horrible feeling.

sorry to quote your whole message but couldn't link to your user name.
I have no advice as I live away from all my extended family but didn't want you to think you were unwelcome here as no one had responded. The thead has had a bit of a lull which happens sometimes!
Your situation sounds very hard and it must be hard being so close geographically. Hopefully someone who has the right experience will be along to advise now I have bumped this for you. It is v hard dealing with toxic families and I am sorry you are in this position but welcome on-board and hopefully you will find the support you need x

@rollerbutterfly I hope you are feeling better today. Stay strong, it isn't easy but you must be kind to yourself, you had a lifetime of shit from your mum. I found the anger kept me strong but it was also exhausting.
Emotions are annoying things, hit you when your not expecting it. If the texts upset you don't read or just delete them.
Low contact or in my case NC is sometimes just as time consuming mentally as dealing with the toxic mums. One day you will just feel free from it, your mind will feel clearer. The only regret I had was not doing it 40 years earlier.

@Whistledown1005 i can relate to a lot of what you say. It’s very hard to come to terms with this reality. The acknowledgment of reality and the consequent grief is very painful but necessary to break free.

I hear you with the unfair treatment of you, and your son, in comparison to your sister and her children, it would sicken you wouldn’t it? I truly can’t imagine ever treating my two kids in that way. It’s insanity really. I’ll give you an example from my own situation. So, after LC relationship with my parents and sister for 4 years (i began my “journey” during covid when I started therapy and I realised the truth of my family) I attended a couple of family events, it was uncomfortable at times but bearable. I was happy enough with this arrangement as it meant I could have some semblance of family and this was nice for my kids etc. anyway, Xmas comes around and my parents head to my sister and her family, no mention of what we, and her precious grandchildren were doing (she’s claims to adore HER grandkids). On the day I got a “happy Xmas” text, that’s it. This was the beginning of me truly looking, acknowledging and accepting that my parents don’t love, like or care about me or my kids in the slightest. This process was very hard to come to terms with but necessary. I suppose I believed that on some level they really did love my kids, but would they treat them so poorly if they did? Their version of “love” is toxic, dysfunctional and dangerous and I have learned the I have a duty to not have my kids exposed to that so now we are NC.

On the topics of racism and weight, yes that is something i would have been exposed to also. I didn’t want my kids to be surrounded by such ignorance, like I had been growing up. Like you I’m a size 10, have been my whole really, but was encouraged to join weight watchers as a teenager, like you I don’t have an eating disorder as such but I do have an unhealthy relationship with food.

After processing my trauma through therapy, the level of love I have for my parents is very low. I’m now simply disgusted by them. I would recommend therapy if you haven’t already tried it, it will help you so much.

Understanding the difference between "love" and "trauma bonding" was a massive break-through for me.

Once I realised that there was no love involved, only trauma bonding, did I see that the only way to go was No Contact.

The healing process has taken years. I have no regrets. The dynamics of my family of origin was highly toxic, and brought me nothing but trouble and heartache.

These set-ups are so highly complex that they take a lot of unravelling. I don't know why we insist on going back to a well when we know it's dry.

I'm so glad it's all over for me. My life is exponentially better for going NC.

@User543211 like @flapjackfairy in don’t want you to feel like no one is hearing you. I hear you. Agree this thread goes in waves.
Dont beat yourself up about not calling out her behaviour, in fact you may well have done the right thing as by calling her out she would have almost certainly doubled down and started gaslighting you all. Just make sure you spend time sending positive affirming messages to your sister and your children.
Your daughter won’t miss out by not going to dance, she could miss out in a happy mum though if you don’t put yourself first.
I don’t live near my mum but I have a sibling that does. They have worked hard on establishing boundaries and stepping away from the relationship. A simple “that doesn’t work for me” is often effective. Take care

I always took both toddler and baby to all classes. You will get used to it. Stop letting this horrible woman near your innocent children.

My mother contacted me saying 'Hi Twatalert, send a sign of life'.

WTF. I told her before I am not going to respond to this.

There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. Mostly I see this as guilt tripping. Am I exaggerating? I'm in my 40s and receive such instructions from my mother. Am I supposed to think she's worried and then feel guilty for not easing her worry? Why do these people think they are entitled to hear from me upon request?

It really threw me this morning and I am going to have to spend all day trying to manage my feelings.

Totally with you there Twatalert, had contact from mine this week too and it's taken days for my feelings to level out. I manage remarkably well to just not think about her the majority of the time so it's upsetting and infuriating when she forces herself back into my consciousness. Just wanted you to know you're not alone, hope you're ok.

No idea why most of my post is in italics, sorry!

No you are not exaggerating twatalert.

Sounds like hoovering from your mother, these types never accept boundaries and actively rail against same. Do not fall for such hoovering attempts. Block that means of communication she used to contact you directly,

Oh god I hadn't recognised it as hoovering.

@Richandstrange I'm glad to know you understand and are able to manage your feelings. I'm so done with them but they keep trying to get me back in. Probably so they can tell themselves and others that they have tried and 'have no idea what possesses Twatalert'.