March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

roller butterfly I think you should block your mum's phone. She's actually making you worse. You don't have to tell her you're blocking her, just do it. Do you have someone who could listen to her messages for you and summarise if necessary? That could be an option. I'm sorry for your pain

@rollerbutterfly so sorry for your pain too. I think you should block her for a while. If you feel you can’t just ghost her, perhaps send one single very brief message saying you just need some time out to yourself and then immediately block before she can respond. Reading their messages makes things worse I feel. My mum sent 8-10 messages via WhatsApp when I went NC this time, I archived them all initially and didn’t read them, then a few days later permanently blocked her and deleted everything, again not reading them.

This way you can have a go at NC and see if the time alone to process things helps, without committing one way or another to NC.

First time poster. I hope this is the right thread. Sorry if this is long.
For context: I am 50 and the oldest of three siblings. My brother and sister are twins, four years younger. We are officially a close-knit, loving family, embedded in an equally close-knit, loving extended family that consist mostly of my DMs siblings and their partners. My beloved Dad passed away in January after a long illness. The family is grieving and under considerable emotional strain.
For most of my life (this is the unofficial part) I have felt, to a greater or lesser degree depending on how things were going, that I am actually an add-on to a family of four consisting of my siblings and my parents. The fact that I don't "fit" has been a frequent source of conflict over the years. My brother is clearly my DM's favourite, closely followed by my sister and her family.
We celebrated my siblings' birthday last weekend. The original plan was to attend with my DH and DD, but DD had a high temperature. Despite this (DD would really have preferred me to stay) I took a train to go to the town where DM lives to be sure I'd be there for the celebratory lunch on Sunday. Non-attendance would not have gone down well.
When I arrived, DS's family, DB, DM and a neighbour who is my siblings' age, let's call him Rob, were watching the football. DB did not even get up to greet me, which frankly pissed me off a little. When the football had ended, everyone sat around talking. 95 % of this conversation consisted of anecdotes shared by Rob about who got drunk when & was sick where and on what during his and my siblings' wild youth - about thirty years ago. I did not have a lot to contribute to this conversation as I've never even met most of the people Rob and my siblings where reminiscing about. I thought, OK, I'm just going to hold out until nine (I was staying in a hotel), because then they'll be watching the football again. This did not happen though, and since I was really tired and run-down, I decided to leave anyway, about 90 mins into the who-got-drunk-when conversation. It seems I made a rather abrupt exit, and I admit I was hurt and a little angered at hardly being included in the conversation for over an hour. I may not have been very diplomatic, but I was also not rude. And I did feel it was my right to leave a situation where no-one paid much attention to me anyway, even if perhaps I could have gone about it more graciously.
The next day, I learned that Rob had left only a few minutes after me, apparently hurt by me decision to leave the conversation. My mother, brother and sister made it very clear throughout the day and the celebratory lunch that I had a) offended Rob by leaving and b) offended them by offending Rob.
Since my father passed, I have phoned my Mum every day. These phone calls revolve around her and her life, as well as the lives of her acquaintances and my siblings. I have gone through a very major job crisis in the last few months. This has hardly ever featured in my phone calls with my Mum, and I have received hardly any support from my siblings.
My Mum opened yesterday's phone call by telling me, in no uncertain terms, that she does not wish to fall out with Rob and see his feelings hurt, and that my "exit" spoilt my siblings' birthday. My feelings don't seem to matter. Because she was so persistent in suggesting that I'm in the wrong and everything is my fault and my fault only, the conversation really escalated. She did not say it in so many words, but she does in fact consider my sister and my brother "closer" family members than me. I, in turn, told her that I have always felt a second-class member of the family, that I feel that my feelings and needs matter less than everyone else's, and that she provided much more assistance for DS when her kids were little than she did for me ("But she has two kids. You have only one.")
I now feel very bad for telling my newly-bereaved DM such harsh truths. I'm deeply hurt by the things she said to me. I'm also glad I finally told my truth. I feel like going NC with DM, DB and DSis, and I'm also afraid of losing even more family members. Frankly, I'm a mess.
If you've made it until here, thank you so much for reading.

Drop the rope they hold out to you. No longer bother with any of them. With you out of the picture hopefully they will further turn against each other.

Your mother is more concerned about her neighbour’s feeling rather than yours. She wanted to give him the impression of her perfect family image with her at the centre of her universe (ie look at how wonderful I am to produce such wonderful children) and in her eyes you spoilt that image. You’re the scapegoat here in this narcissistic family structure and have been so throughout.

You have two qualities that she lacks - empathy and insight. You may on some level remind her of your late father, a man she disliked.

@RobinsNest87 I'm sorry, this situation is difficult and I can very much sympathise. You know how you feel and you would not have felt like the fifth wheel without good reason. I'm sorry to say and I may not get this right, but they are scapegoating you all the way. They blame you for the Rob situation and you feel guilty for telling them how you feel. Huge red flag and this is something that was instilled into us from a very young age.

I wish I could shake off all guilt I carry and tell people how I feel about something without worrying I might ruin their day, but it's more complicated than that.

One thing I will also say is: have you not lost all these other family members already, or never even had them, but maintained the illusion of being part of a family? It's a difficult thing to realise you don't matter to your family. It's something we even struggle to imagine and takes many, many messed up situation to even contemplate.

Leaving my family is the greatest pain of my life, but not because of what I lost but because of what I realised I never had and never will have and that I will do life on my own forever now. But it's also the best thing I have done for myself. It's the only way to be free.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Yes, everyone's feelings are more important than mine. It's always been like this, and it's because my feelings are wrong and I'm overly sensitive. The idea of a rope being held out to me really resonates. My sister does something similar in our relationship and I'm only now beginning to realize it. I've always felt I need to earn their love.

@Twatalert Telling people how one feels was never really a thing when I grew up. There was a lot of silent treatment, or sometimes shouting. My Mum is quite immature emotionally and never deparented properly. I think she, too, always felt she had to earn her parents' love.

@RobinsNest87 yes, typical generational trauma. I can see why my mother became who she is, but that's no excuse.

I always say that during my lifetime they all had access to the exact same information I did. Plus they were adults all through my life, when I wasn't for 18 years. So who had the advantage of going with the times? I did and they did too. The difference is that they chose not to and that's on them. Not on me or their upbringing. It's on them. It's called accountability and this is what these people lack.

And the silent treatment doled out was and is an example of emotional abuse.

Toxic dysfunction often goes down the generations.

Your mother had a choice when it came to you and she chose to do what was done to her. She did not want to seek nor sought the necessary help.

@RobinsNest87 i agree with the advice others have given. Often it’s an event as you describe here, which to the outside world can seem pretty unremarkable, but to those of us who share families like this, recognise & feel immediately. They define the whole bloody family dynamics! I’d say they are definitely treating you in the scapegoat role, this worry about the neighbour’s feelings over yours is crazy, especially considering you’ve lost your Dad recently too.

The fact you felt you had to attend their birthday when your DD had a temperature, says it all. In a normal family you should have been able to ring up, explain the situation and apologise for your absence which would have been readily accepted along with goodwill wishes to your DD. They all sounds incredibly demanding & narcissistic, expecting you to put their needs before that of your own family. Your mother saying it spoilt their birthday?? How old are they? they are behaving like spoilt toddlers and your mum’s like a ridiculous protective mother hen! These are adults for goodness sake! Not greeting or including you in the conversation is unforgivable too.

I’d definitely be considering going NC with them. It doesn’t sound like they enrich your wellbeing much and I can’t see that changing, especially if you’ve always felt that way. I always joked the stork had dropped me off at the wrong bloody house, you know when somethings not right and you can feel the dysfunctional relationships, even before you clearly see them. If nothing else, tell them you need some time out after losing you Dad etc, block/mute them all for now, and see how it feels. You will undoubtedly feel scared, sad and guilty, that’s normal, but if you also feel a sense of peace and relief creeping in, it’s worth continuing.

I'm sorry you went through that. I feel any conversation with a family member that doesn't allow for you to have a valid perspective isn't right.

@SkylarkDay I'm starting by taking a break from the daily phone calls and it does feel like a relief for sure.

@BitsNBibs40s So true. What I can't get my head around is this total refusal to engage with my perspective. I do try and see theirs.

Sounds like a really good idea. As time goes by and you feel more relief and less pressure from them you’ll know if you can maintain low contact successfully or if you need to go fully NC. Personally my only regret is not going NC 30 years ago. I tormented myself for years waiting for things to change and they never accepted low contact, it was a constant battle. Hope you get some peace.

Many people like that have a personality disorder. They don't see you as your own person with your own needs and opinions. You are just there so they can project their shit onto you and feed their needs only. You were given a role on this family which you played for many years but are how rebelling against. Expect more shit from them as a result.

I realised that being bullied, put down and hated since I was born by adults around me has meant that I don’t like or think much of myself. I’ve been working on it in various ways but never really acknowledged or questioned ‘do I like myself?’. I don’t hate myself but not sure if I would go as far as to say ‘I like who I am’.

Anyone else felt like this?

@tonewbeginnings for me it was something that came with age.
My 30's were a turning point, I started sorting myself and my life out.

I have worked for everything I have, I not only like myself I am also proud of myself, all my achievements and the life iv built but it didn't happen overnight.

The family stuff was a source of shame, fear, loneliness, it stained me and made me feel weak, I am not a weak person. I regret allowing myself to get suckered back in by them because I hoped things had changed. It was the same shit. People only have power over us if we let them, it's a hard lesson.

I think it is true, we have to like/love ourselves to allow others to love us but I no longer make excuses for other people's bad behaviour.
There are days I know I need to exercise more, eat less cake, lose some weight....then I think fuck it I'm 63 I deserve to do what I jolly well want. I spent half my life under the kosh of other people's expectations of me. When I first heard Alanis Morisette song perfect, I cried:

Perfect.
Sometimes is never quite enough
If you're flawless, then you'll win my love
Don't forget to win first place
Don't forget to keep that smile on your face
Be a good boy
Try a little harder
You've got to measure up
Make me prouder
How long before you screw it up
How many times do I have to tell you to hurry up
With everything I do for you
The least you can do is keep quiet
Be a good girl
You've gotta try a little harder
That simply wasn't good enough
To make us proud
I'll live through you
I'll make you what I never was
If you're the best, then maybe so am I
Compared to him compared to her
I'm doing this for your own damn good
You'll make up for what I blew
What's the problem, why are you crying
Be a good boy
Push a little farther now
That wasn't fast enough
To make us happy
We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect.

I am not perfect but I am happy, I like myself, I love my husband, my dogs, my friends, my life. I am good enough xxx

Me, I feel like this. I was never good enough, I was called lazy and arrogant, and a liar. I grew up assuming I was in fact lazy and arrogant and that I was in denial about reality because I couldn’t work out how I was lying about stuff.
I tried some therapy but spent the whole time worrying that the therapist thought I was a horrible person.
I am trying to like myself. I keep my friendship group small but strong and I make an effort to not be like my mum with my kids. My daughter asked me what word describes her and I said “joyful”. I’ll keep reinforcing that and hopefully she carries the joyful label into adulthood the way I carried the negative labels.

@tonewbeginnings this is definitely how I felt. To be honest I felt like that up until I first went NC with my parents. However as soon as I went NC I started to heal, discover who I really am and feel differently. To be honest, when I gave them a second chance which has sadly resulted in NC again, one of the main reasons it didn’t work, is because I started to feel these feelings creeping back in towards myself as well as the loss of my new found identity. For me when I have contact, they manage to make me feel a failure, not like myself and also lose who I actually am.

Now I am NC again, and luckily this time I bounced back quickly to who I was before i gave them a second chance, I’m accepting of myself. As @binkie163 says I may not be perfect but I’m happy with myself and love my own family and pets. I don’t need their approval, I would never get it and they revelled in making me feel like I never measured up which starts to seep into your own brain.

@tonewbeginnings I can definitely relate. I am "too sensitive", always somehow wrong, unlike and therefore lesser than the rest of the family. I've spent a lot of time trying to be a person my family (especially my mother and sister) would like and approve of, and I'm only now beginning to realize that by attempting to be what they want me to be, I am in fact reinforcing the pattern. I haven't been quite able to turn this around yet as far as my family is concerned. My position in the family has massively affected the way I approach friendships, and with respect to friends, something has definitely shifted in the last years. I now ask myself "Do I like person x?" rather than agonize about whether x likes me. As an experiment, could you just decide that you like yourself and spend more energy thinking about what you actually want from other people? Easier said than done I'm sure, but I've found that I've gained a lot of emotional independence by shifting the focus onto myself. Some day, I hope to be able to apply this to family too...

So out of the blue my sister video chatted me the other day. I was quite surprised that for once it was not the 'allaboutherson' show and she listened when i said something about my life. Not one word about our mother thankfully, she asked about our ad as I visited him recently but naturally we got to the, what I call 'busy olympics'. She will try contact me in a few weeks again. Her and her other half are so so busy in work as its the financial year end where she is and she has to invoice people. Shes in sales. Her other half is in an admin role or something now I think. So yes they are both super busy with that and their one child. She even said to me I would not understand and I thought I am not even going to bother.

For context - I parent alone. I work as a financial controller. ALL OF THE FINANCIAL YEAR END falls on me. ALL of it. And I have a home to run, a long drive to and from the office and it is a 5 hour return trip when I go to see our dad. I also have a pet that needs looking after and when our financial year end was here I not only did that but also minded someone elses three (nightmare) dogs. But no her life is so so much busier. Always will be. Oh I also have a second teen in the house now too as I took in a foreign student for a month but I have loads of spare time. It really is pointless pointing that out but anyway she seemed friendly enough even if she did walk around chopping things talking to me instead of sitting...

@Genuineweddingone well done for not letting her get to you too much. All the 'look at me, I'm so busy... lah lah lah' is attention seeking. She's probably not doing half the stuff she cracks on she is.
@tonewbeginnings I had to go completely non contact before I found peace. It's not been easy and there are times I think I should resume contact. I come and read the posts here and they remind me why it was the right decision.
I also wanted to say that even though I don't post much, I hold you all in my thoughts and send you strength and resolve.

@Parentalalienation my brother years ago got an admin job. Nothing wrong with it at all but answering phones and doing some basic admin work and says one time to me 'sure i do what you do now its not that hard'. The fact i am an accountant seems to go straight over their heads. I dont want a medal for it but jesus if you cannot acknowledge the fact this is what I do then do not try and tell me I dont understand your job. It really is always a case of 'lets minimise the big sister' and its years of conditioning from the parents.

A few weeks ago I asked my dad why my brother rarely visits. Says he to me ah its hard THEY (both him and his wife) have two kids to bring you have to understand. Hmm ok so thats a kid each which would be similar to me with one child (and one dog) and I have been bringing mine everywhere practically on my lip since day one as never had a second parent. Again no medal needed but ffs why is it always the need to be condescending towards me?

The busy olympics though is hilarious. The look on her face when she says 'I have to send invoices and everything' like its rocket science but apparently I would not understand. Baffling. I will not allow her to think shes got to me though.