March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Well hello everyone.

New house found. Half moved in. a month away from getting back to work. Got on PIP.

Mother threatening and abusive to best friend who now isn't ever going to speak to me again.

This morning "I know where you live" and then reciting phone numbers of doctors, landlady, everyone.

Can't escape. No help.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau log all the threats to the police. That is harassment. I am so sorry they wont leave you alone.

@junebugalice @AttilaTheMeerkat @Twatalert I just wanted to say thank you for reading my post and each of your responses. To take the time out your day to reply to me means a lot! Thank you for your words of support/encouragement. I feel it's a tough journey ahead but I've managed NC for 9 months and deep down I am better free from the two of them. Luckily I don't live close to them. I take on board advice about my grandma and the funeral and grey rocking. It gives me encouragement to hear other people's stories and I will keep following this thread with interest.

@Kinny03 they love saying 'draw a line, put it behind you' and all the other rubbish. I had drawn many lines and mother dear just kept behaving badly. There comes a time when you accept it will never change. They never change, it isn't worth the energy, time or emotion. We all get hoovered in at some point, it is a hard lesson.
The best thing we can do is not engage in their drama, there is no rule that says we have to keep harmful people in our lives just because they are family.

I've involved the police before. On two separate occasions she has taken them into a separate room, shed crocodile tears and told them I am violent and drink four bottles of wine a day (she tried this on my now ex-best-friend who wonn't have anything to do with me due to her who actually laughed because it was so ridiculous) but on one occasion they basically said there there and went away and on the other, one of them escorted me away to a place of safety while the other told her where it was. Literally gave her the address. The University she teaches at may or may not be escalating her using the "I know where you live" threat on my friend - it won't work on my friend because he's moving, but he certainly won't want me to know it ever because she'll find out the passwords. And if she can't threaten me directly she'll go to my other family members, my friends, lie to my work, my medical professionals.

And I'm a lawyer. I know what harassment is, I know what coercive control is. I know how gruelling the trials are and how abusers take advantage of them. She is a lawyer and she is infinitely more rich.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
Can you move again and don't tell anyone where it is ? Record every conversation on your phone . Block block and block.some more. Set up a PO box for all mail and give that to your medical professionals. Can you change your name,? I know none of this should be required but she is truly evil and deranged.

Move out, Cecile.

can you set up hidden cameras to.film her abuse ?
Sorry just throwing out ideas x

@TheShellBeach I have spent years saving up and preparing for this move, put in place all sorts of outside sources, asked for help, tried Refuge, have in fact moved out and lived alone for months and years at a time before. She is rich, powerful, clever, a stalker and employed at the University where I was educated and my life's ambition was to work there - my friends and communities are also there. Her job gives her even higher levels of connections. She can wrap the police around her middle finger, my doctors, everyone. She doesn't hesitate to pressure and verbally abuse and torture friends, relatives, exes, anyone on my side. I also have multiple physical and mental health issues. "Just leave" is difficult enough when you're an adult woman with some resources and somewhere to disappear to.

@Kinny03 just seen your post and sympathise greatly. I totally agree with the other posts & advice. Sadly people will not change their behaviour and nothing we can do will change that, as much as we try. In my opinion the only way forward is often NC. It’s definitely not an easy path and personally I have good days and bad days but ultimately for me it’s less painful than having contact in the long run. Plus in my opinion it’s difficult to try & heal & move on until NC as there are constant triggers going off when you see them.

My family dynamics with siblings are sadly definitely impacted as although they know my Mum is toxic & understand, they’re still in contact and a little resentful I’m still not toeing the line with them. They get more hassle & grief when I have been NC as Mum needs constant attention, she’s like a screaming toddler. Today (Father’s Day) I’m definitely having a more difficult day and feeling guilty as I’ve lost him by going NC with my Mum. However I also have feelings of utter disappointment and hurt that he enables my mother’s toxic/abusive behaviour and says he needs to do as she says and not cause trouble for a quiet life, even at the cost of his children’s happiness.

Hope you manage to keep NC and have some peace for a while. As you say, it’s helpful reading other people’s experience on this thread and getting reassurance that we’re not all alone dealing with this. Also for me, I find it reassuring when I have moments of is it me? Reading other people’s experience helps me validate what’s gone on in my childhood family.

I’m very very very low contact with my NM but haven’t cut her out as it would feel too difficult for everyone else as it’s a big family. I’m 100 the scapegoat. So much so I even laugh about it now - eg something goes wrong completely not related to me and I’ll joke ‘they’ll find a way to blame me I’m sure’. So I’ve totally compromised myself and kept her in my life for decades but I’m still getting grief for doing that. It’s never enough. My family just think I should suck up her shit over and over and over again and pretend it’s not even happening. Easy for them to say - they’re not on the receiving end of her ‘special’ treatment. It’s abusive tbh when they collude like that. It’s basically saying ‘you don’t matter you must take the shit to keep us all ‘happy’

It’s hard to reply to each quote but I am standing (or sitting) in solidarity with everyone on this thread, so grateful for this space. After receiving thoughtful advice after sharing my own story, I already feel a sense of relief and the permission to distance myself from them. So grateful to you all.

I’m sorry to hear this. You’re worth more than that.

KaleQueen

re your comment:
"I’m very very very low contact with my NM but haven’t cut her out as it would feel too difficult for everyone else as it’s a big family".

You can and actually should further lower all contact levels to zero sum gradually. Your above comment is no reason or basis to keep in contact with her and in any case its not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You have a choice here and I would urge you not to keep on sucking up all their shit. Be tired of being the last person who matters!.

Do not set yourself on fire here to keep others warm. This big family of yours do not give a shiny poo about you and act additionally as your mother's flying monkeys doing her dirty work for her. With you out of the picture entirely these family members would likely further turn against each other.

@SkylarkDay my dad was also my mums weak enabler 'for a quiet life!' However once I started looking more closely at the behaviours I was shocked to realize how manipulative my dad was, he would try tears, pleading, flattery etc to coerce me into letting my mum get away with bad behavior. He didn't care how damaging it was to me emotionally being the scapegoat, he wanted me to deal with her so he didn't have to, the mask would slip when I wouldn't capitulate, he would then get spiteful.
My 'poor old dad' was every bit as selfish as my mum, he was getting what he needed from the marriage, they were both dysfunctional. When I went NC it was with parents and siblings, there was no other way and yes they did resent my walking away from the bullshit and no longer taking all the flak. My family is so messed up, toxic people seem to enjoy the toxicity and drama.

test

Enablers are very much abusers too. My 'poor victim father' does a lot of dirty work for my mother. Sometimes I thought he does it to keep the peace, but it's only his peace and the peace is superficial. It's never the peace of the person my mother targets, when my father chips in and says and does all the things his narcissistic wife would have said or done.

But he must be incredibly miserable on the inside because he has no mind of his own. He depends on the narcissist for dear life and employs many of the narcs tactics. My father can sulk and guilt trip as a manipulative tactic very well. The very famous sentence 'after everything we have done for you' came from him.

Took me 40 years to also turn on my father, the enabler. One day I realised he was happy to feed me to the wolves when I was a child and this changed my opinion of him completely and forever.

@KaleQueen it is never enough, it never will be enough, not even sacrificing yourself will be enough. Your family prefer you to be miserable as long as they are happy.
The blame shit is ludicrous. One frantic screaming phone call requiring us to rush 2 hours to them because the TV remote wasn't working and my dad said he knew my husband had touched it 6 weeks earlier when visiting!!! Bloody batshit, we just laughed at them and told them to try that fuckwittery with my brother. Instead of asking politely for my tech husband's help, they turned it into a drama of blame. It's really embarrassing having to admit your parents are rude, ignorant and stupid.

@binkie163 @Twatalert yes you’re both right. It’s taken me a long time to see that. My Dad seems so sweet & henpecked and once he sneakily visited me behind Mum’s back when I was no contact previously. I was so pleased as I thought it was because he missed me and it must have taken a lot to get him to go behind her back. Then after a lovely evening together despite him admitting he knew she was violent to me as a young child but he didn’t know what to do, and yes she was a monster, as he left he said what he’d really come to say. Which was, Mum was mum and couldn’t I just ignore it, and rejoin the family for a quiet life.

In that moment I suddenly saw him as he really was and later realised she’d probably sent him in the first place. Plus, it wasn’t my quiet life he was pleading for, it was hers. Then since I rejoined the family this last four years, I’ve seen him being increasingly critical & sometimes cruel about people and I realise he’s not unlike her in some ways. I think the 6 years NC gave me space to see him properly and it’s been a bit of a shock. I did vaguely think about sending him a Father’s Day card today, only because I felt guilty because he’s 85, but in the end I just couldn’t do it, I think that’s why I found today difficult. The sadness & realisation of who he really is. Going forward though I know it’s for the best to stop kidding myself, open my eyes and see them as they really are. It’s hurtful but makes me realise, NC once again is the only answer.

Hello everyone!

Well, what can I say? I've been reading these threads for probably ten years but never had the courage to reach out for help before. But things have got worse, so (deep breath!) here goes.

Married for 15yrs very happily, two children (one teen, one preteen). Husband and I have a very happy and very peaceful relationship. I suffer from some anxiety but nothing like I had as a child/young adult as I’ve had therapy and some drug therapy too.

Grew up in an absolute pit of anxiety. Father had grown up in a children’s home and was very badly fucked up as a result. Mother was bought up by a mother with severe post natal depression who also had schitzophrenia… all a bit of a shit show. When I was four my younger sister was diagnosed with autism and my mum started having extreme panic attacks (to the point she ended up in A&E more than once) and then ended up with depression. My dad swiftly followed and everything with my sister and mum combined with everything from his childhood and he had a nervous breakdown. Was an in patient in hospital for a few weeks when I was six, genuinely terrifying. I’d say my maternal grandfather was about the sanest member of the family and even so he was very old fashioned and quite cold, I know he loved me but he wasn’t where I got “normal” childhood warmth. My father had no family and my mum had one sister, also autistic and a very strict Baptist who would have very little to do with us as we weren’t “holy”.

When I was 14 I started a relationship with a teacher of mine who was 31. He was married, eventually left his wife and it went on until I was 22 and looking back I was groomed to fuckery but my parents and sister, mother and sister in particular, blame me for this relationship and it “coming out” (when I was 19) and the subsequent breakdown of it (when I had a nervous breakdown) for “wrecking the family”. Looking back that’s insane; I had a brief breakdown, still finished my degree that I was in the final year of and within 18 months was doing the law conversion course and have been a gainfully employed solicitor ever since. I also had a bit of a drink problem in this time, which often gets bought up, but haven’t drunk for ten years now.

Sister has been shown absolute favouritism as far back as I can remember. She lived at home rent free with my parents until she married at 38. She often wasn’t in work. Excuses were made for her. Her autism is not so extreme that she can’t work, although this was often cited as why she was laying around doing fuck all on my parents dime. When I have expressed being pissed off about that my mother- who has a very weird attitude to money, generally cited as being because her own parents grew up poor- cites that because she and my dad paid my rent at uni it all “evens out”. I call bullshit on that, but the narrative is that I’m feckless with money (I’m not especially, I’m just not a prudent saver like my mum is) so it always comes back to that. So I’m feckless with money, a pisshead and I start relationships with married men. That’s the narrative, no mitigating circumstances ever taken into account and still referred to as if current events rather than 20 year old stories.

Sister is now married to a complete arsehole that my parents don’t like any more than I do (he’s controlling and unpleasant) but I am the one who gets to hear about it and when I then bring up things that have been said about his behaviour in front of my sister, they often deny it. Schizophrenic granny is still alive and her relationship with my mum is abusive; she’s 95 and awful, but my mum just shuts down and says she copes with her by “not feeling things”. Even goes as far as to say mad things like “my superpower is not feeling things… I didn’t even cry at my dad’s funeral!” Wowsers.

I’ve been compelled to write this after a slanger of a row yesterday which ended with me being gaslit, my dad saying I was giving him chest pains (he has a heart condition) and my sister saying she wants us to have therapy together with her therapist and my mum nodding along like a little lap dog at her. I don’t want therapy with these people; I’m 41 years old and I feel like I see clearly for the first time how scapegoated and abused I’ve been. I’m fucking furious.

I’ve been having therapy myself and my therapist has been fairly clear that I’m well adjusted in every other area of my life and that probably I do need some kind of family therapy but I feel like she doesn’t know them and doesn’t know how that’ll go. My first instinct is always to apologise and try and make nice with them all and I’m fucking sick of it.

If anyone can offer any resources about being the family scapegoat, general familial abuse and how to break free of this shit as well as any advice, I would be very, grateful.

I’m sure there are pertinent details I’ve missed so feel free to ask!!! *
*
Thanks for all the years of reading these threads which have made me realise how dysfunctional everything is in my family of origin. And by dysfunctional I obviously mean FUCKED UP.

@DysfunctionalDora there is a list of really good resources, podcasts, YouTube and books at the start of the thread. For me there were no answers and tbh I didn't want to understand why, it wouldn't change anything, one day I just walked away and never looked back. No family is better than shit toxic family.
Do not do therapy with them, it will be used to humiliate and keep you in your place.
It isn't an easy choice but make no mistake it is a choice, you can choose to live your life or stay in their game, enmeshed within all the drama and shit. There is no way to manage unmanageable people. Some people are addicted to their family narc drama and will never break away. Choose to be free.

Oh crikey yes. My dad went to the pub every day. Didn’t get really drunk but still. My mum resented it but it was me that got bollocked for sitting in my room as a teenager and leaving her on her own. Come sit with your mother - err is that not your role father? She’d then be drunk in the house and start having entirely inappropriate conversations with me as a teenager. I remember he stuck up for me once when she put all my toys in bin bags and threw them out as my room was untidy. I was hysterical and he brought the toys back in. At the time I thought he was a wonderful dad for doing that for me. Less so now.

@DysfunctionalDora again, I agree with @binkie163 With people like this and family dynamics such as they are, there is no magic wand or lightbulb moment that will change them or the situation. I’ve spent years trying, even giving my family one last chance 4 years ago, and again, everyone reverted to type and the only answer is NC.

Honestly, one of the best bits of advice I got was from a really good friend of mine who had suffered a dysfunctional family in his past and is now a mediation counsellor with Relate. He said, if a relationship with an individual isn’t nourishing to you as a person, then you have to question why you continue it. If a relationship is detrimental to your wellbeing, then you definitely shouldn’t. Sometimes it’s difficult to see the wood from the trees in our complicated, dysfunctional childhood families and to be honest, I feel it’s impossible to untangle. So now I just think of Simon’s advice and it simplifies it to a basic question. That’s not to say NC is easy and still having self doubt and guilt is hard initially. But in the long run if you have your own happy family unit, life is too short to waste on trying to fix our dysfunctional childhood families in my opinion. My advice would also be, choose to be free, you deserve better

@TorroFerney yeah I too was made to feel like shit for wanting to be in my room only. Like there is something wrong with me. In hindsight it was the safest space I had. Away from everyone and everything. That's why I spent my days in there.

My therapist explained scapegoating to me: it's very toxic. Basically I always thought that when something goes wrong they'd blame one and the same person. Like the car breaks and it's the scapegoat child's fault.

But there is something else: like in the example of me just wanting to be in my room. In a way the toxic dynamics made me want to be there and nowhere else because I had no safety at home. But instead of accepting accountability as parents and wonder how it could have come to this it was just 'well, twatalert is a difficult and selfish child and it shows because she won't come out of her room'. It was proof that something was wrong with me, so I took the blame (i.e. I was scapegoated) for their failings. It was a lightbulb moment when I understood this.

I can find a thousand of other examples of this. It's so hard to figure out.