March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Poshneglect because they remain infantile and emotionally immature. Denial and projection are powerful and theyd rather keep these up than face the truth and the pain that comes with it.

Ever since I learnt about and understood projection and it's purpose in psychology I see people a lot more for who they are. In a way they are telling on themselves all the time but package it in a way so that it's supposed to say something about you rather than them.

@Airworld ahh yes the old inheritance game/bullshit. Once I stopped dancing to my mothers tune I was apparently theatrically written out of her will. She had in the past secretly promised everyone individually all her money to ensure their compliance 😂 My dad emptied her bank account the day after she died and no one got anything 😂

Addicts are easy to manipulate and they are just narc supply, enmeshed/co dependent personalities, happy to accept crumbs.
It takes a really strong person to say enough, I'm done, fuck you and your money. Oh and fuck your flying monkeys as well!

@Twatalert you are right normal people can sense there is something different about us. I remember reading many years ago that kids like us that grow up neglected in abusive chaotic homes, have no sense of security or stability and that's makes us unpredictable. It is the unpredictability that they pick up on, it unsettles them, they instinctively steer away.
I also found normal people really boring, I grew up in an alcoholic home of screaming fights, violence, extreme behavior, I was practically feral. I didn't understand normal.
I now crave peace and quiet in my life, I don't want uncertainty, chaos or anxiety. All I want is to be left alone, I have a good life, my family are just a festering wound.

Can any of you wise posters help? Long time lurker on this thread.
Ive had an awful relationship with my mother all my life. Final straw last year when she screamed abuse in my face and slammed a door in my face. She always plays the victim. I can’t cut her out as I have a sister I’m close to and there will be family events I’d have to miss if I did. She did ‘apologise’ six months later via text….but it just meant nothing. I’ve kept her at arms length now for six months and she’s seen my kids 3/4 times at family events and birthdays. Now she’s pushing for more contact, they’re ‘her’ grandchildren etc. I just want to let it all out how angry I am but can’t. How can I tell her look you don’t have any ‘right’ to see them after the way you’ve treated me. Honestly she’s been disgusting to me so many times yet I’m meant to just let her play happy families with my precious girls. Im so torn as i totally look like the ‘bad’ person if i say stay away from us, but every atom in me wants nothing more to do with her. I’ve been so much happier since we went virtually no contact but now she’s pushing again I’m back to anxious angry and on edge

Kale queen

Would suggest you cut your mother out despite the facts that you are close to your sister (but how close is she to your mother?) along with missing some family events. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles, what are your sisters roles here? .

If you saw your mother at family events or you knew she’d be there beforehand it would cause you both stress and anxiety for days. Your sister is presumably old enough to make up her mind but if she sides with your mother this says far more about her than it does you. If you examine this more closely there are bloody good reasons why you should cut contact and they well outweigh any family vent and your sister.

She like practically all toxic parents has not apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions. She will also harm your daughters in similar ways as to how you’ve been harmed if you facilitate contact with her. Take your kids instead to events where your mother will not be present.

Deal with any and all FOG (fear obligation and guilt) through therapy.

Thank you for replying. I wish it was this simple but it’s not. If it wasn’t for my sister she’d be well gone out of my life. We both had a very tough childhood and a strong bond as a result. She’s absolutely classic textbook parentified golden child. She is close to my mother but I wouldn’t say in a healthy way. We used to grumble about her together but the more then pulled away my mother would run to my sister and at times it’s caused rifts between us as she gets frustrated with me as she gets ‘stuck in the middle’. As she knows deep down I’m right but has a huge sense of obligation and indeed love for my mother. So we just don’t talk about it now and I hope/think she’s finally accepted we have different relationships with the mother.
for background parents divorced early childhood we witnessed violence and horrible behaviour. Mother left father without warning taking us with her. Father isn’t a saint but has been an amazing dad to us both to the best of his ability. I had to leave mother in teens and live with dad as she became so awful I was ill. The day I left my mother told my sister ‘we’ll be much happier without her here it’s just me and you now’ (sister told me this years later not in a mean it was when we were discussing how traumatic me leaving was for her. I guess she felt abandoned and mother stepped in to comfort and that’s been the pattern since - im
the one to blame for all the upset. Why ‘can’t I just’ get on with my mother for everyone’s sakes.
which is the bit that has left me needing years of therapy as it wasn’t my bloody fault, never was, still isn’t, yet still getting the blame and looking bad.
classically the blinkers fell off me as soon as I had a daughter. Would spend hours walking with the pram processing flashbacks thinking wtf how could my mother do that to me?!

@KaleQueen Do you think you suffer from guilt? Is it guilt underneath the anger and anxiety?

This might be the point to address for you in whichever way you see fit.

This guilt can be incredibly strong because you were conditioned to meet your mother's needs or else. If you can break it down.. and try to feel through any episodes of guilt for as long as you can. It becomes less overtime.

It's just a wild guess based on my own experience. The pull back to the narcissist mother was so strong sometimes because I carried huge guilt which was difficult to sit with.

@KaleQueen I am feeling every bit of your pain and hurt and frustration. It is NOT our fault. The fact we put up with it for so long before finally asserting ourselves is what happened but other people prefer things to go back the way they were for the sake of harmony and it is not fair and yes we do get the blame. I feel for you so much. I understand every single thing you are saying. It is horrendous we have to carry the guilt for something we did not manifest to begin with. Im so sorry you are hurting x

God. I think I’ve just had a lightbulb moment. Thank you. Yes. I was told when I said I needed some space and that meant the whole family “you don’t tell me what to do!”
im nearly bloody 50 😂
she doesn’t give two figs about me. She has even stated ‘im done with you but it’s important I continue to see the girls’
the entitlement of having access to the family I’ve created inspite of her because it wasn’t easy and I’ve had car crash after car crash of men until i finally met the saint I’m with now (who sussed her out instantly btw and is totally on my side)

PS I’m Catholic so the ‘guilt’ is ingrained from day one

Irish and raised catholic here too. I hear the guilt stuff.

@KaleQueen guilt is powerful unfortunately. It can be horrendous emotionally. I had to break free from it one second at a time. I still carry it but it doesn't make me do anything at the moment. I'm sure bigger waves will come.

You really have nothing to feel guilty about and it’s really a useless emotion. That is what I’ve learnt about guilt over a long period of time .

Does your mother feel guilty- no.

Your sisters role as golden child is a role not without price but she is unaware of that.

And do not forget that the guilt button was installed by her as well as the fear and obligation buttons.

Do keep your mother away from your daughters. If she is too toxic for you to deal with it the same deal for them too.

Thank you.
I’ve honestly never thought this was driven by guilt before I’ve always felt it was def more ‘obligation’ but this is a bit of a revelation.
I felt relief when I left her care at 15 to live with my dad as I was finally safe and cared for and could focus on my exams. It was lovely just to have simple things like meals cooked and my packed lunch made for school never mind not being screamed at constantly. But I felt massively guilty leaving my sister (who avoided all abuse never ever got screamed at just shouted occasionally) and felt bad leaving her to ‘deal with mother’. Same is playing out now except the guilt is now about the grandchildren…how devastated my mother is she can’t see them, how it’s awful they’re missing out, and finally how my sister is having to carry the load of my mothers misery around this. Which isn’t fair but that’s somehow blamed on me not my mother who bloody caused it. If I’d ‘just not be so difficult’. It’s all the same stuff isn’t it? (Ps there’s never once a mention of me how am I doing having to cut my mother out of my life for my own sanity….they assume I’m happy with this arrangement. I’m not. Of course I’m not. I’d much rather it never came to this and I’d had a normal mother. I put up with so much to avoid it coming to this. But scenes at my children’s events were the final straws)

This excerpt I think originally appeared on reddit but it bears repeating

Don't rock the boat.

I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did .

When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.
While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples.

The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something! So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.

Don't rock the boat, be the bigger person (I see that phrase quite a lot on MN), just let it go... all phrases that mean "just go with it so I don't have to hear about it later because that's unpleasant for me, and even though you aren't the one causing it, you not going with their wishes gives me an easy out to blame you instead of the troublemaker"... heard many times in my life and I still do and it drives me absolutely batty.

@AttilaTheMeerkat the rock the boat analogy is the best description of living/coping with narc lunatics.
@KaleQueen you are the scapegoat, you always were and always will be. Your mum wants to continue that with your children, more little scapegoats/boat steadiers served up on a plate. Your sister is a flying monkey and your mums enabler. She wants you back as the punch bag to save herself. I had the same relationship with my sister and my enabler dad.
I was a lurker on this thread
when I was told go NC, like you I said it's not that easy, I thought it was bit harsh and drastic, mum old an frail, not long left blah blah must be easier way, my nerves were shredded and anxious all the time. One day I snapped and guess what it really is that easy, I just went NC I didn't say anything or announce it, I just switched off, blocked parents, sister and brother, then dealt with my emotions.
You either accept being abused or you walk away. Show your children healthy behavior before they end up damaged, your mums sadistic pleasure will damage them. It's your life, your children, your choice. It is a choice, not an obligation.
You owe your mother absolutely nothing and your sister wants you back in the boat.
You can not heal from abuse or protect your children from it while you actively remain in abusive relationships. It's like sitting in your own shit because it feels warm.
Good luck, get your big girl pants on, pull them right up and start making decisions that benefit you and your children.

@binkie163 this is accurate, that you cannot heal whilst you are still in it.

@KaleQueen It may not seem like it now, because you are guilt ridden and the situation is messy, but NC or LC can enable you to live a life you may have no idea existed. I am 18 months into this process and frequently just think to myself 'WHAT? This is how other people live???'

You have been given special training by your mother. I'd advise to start asking yourself in everything you do or think 'Is this what I really want & is this my authentic self?' and then you slowly start doing the things that feel authentic to you, one little thing one second at a time.

The problem with guilt is that we don't just carry it around the people that instilled it into us. It poisons every part of a persons life.

Wow that boat analogy! I have heard it before but it blew my mind again. Whoever wrote that is a v profound and wise person though no doubt the wisdom came at great cost !

@twatalert well put descriptions. I found over the years that I had an understanding of these type of concepts but my own denial/psychic fog/ptsd would not allow me to see any of it properly hence getting into some really very bad situations with the wrong people. Thankfully for me I got away from parents, mum in particular around 15 years ago. My life completely changed but I still have to really work on stuff. I'm a million miles from what I was though, absolutely no boundaries or recognition of what is unsafe. Its like being thrown into the world with nothing and yes as pps there are certain types of people that spot that sadly. Have had some absolutely terrible life experiences that I wouldn't wish on anyone, child abuse age 2/3 first memories, teenage pregnancy, raped etc. The list goes on.
@AttilaTheMeerkat thats a great "boat rocking" analogy. I will remember that one. Very useful.
I spent some time really forgiving mine (from a distance) bearing in mind her childhood, however reading through The Tao of Fully Feeling realising more I'm carrying around alot of shit and unconscious behaviours that I could dispense with if I spend a bit more time observing them.
Massive kudos to all of us that are able to look at ourselves in whichever way we do, therapy, reading, talking here etc. It takes proper strength of character imho to be able to do that, something our parents probably never will. Thanks for listening.

That is the first time i have come across that dont rock the boat analogy and it pin points it exactly. Wow.

Love the Boat analogy!!!

I have a story about a theoretical Kitchen and a Kitchen Aid, it’s sort of light hearted but such a classic conversation with my mother when she is love bombing me and finding reasons to be cross with me in the same conversation. Most people would think I’m being ungrateful but I know you all will see this through different eyes.

Im planning a new kitchen, very much planning and not in progress yet and unlikely to happen for 6 months. My mum announced she wants to buy me a kitchen aid. I politely said thanks, but I don’t need a kitchen aid as I have a mixer and it doesn’t get used loads. She asks what make and I reply saying I don’t know but it’s fine and working so don’t need a new one. She keeps going, she’s had hers for 24 years, why don’t I don’t want a mixer that lasts 24 years? I find myself getting sucked into a debate about whether modern built kitchen aids have the same longevity as the ones built 24 years ago. She starts to get annoyed and says she wants to buy me a gift for my new kitchen. I say that’s lovely and that I’ll probably have other priorities for the kitchen when it’s built and maybe she can choose something for me then I’ll that I need. I also explain that I don’t actually know what I need yet as it’s six months away. She looks unimpressed that I haven’t accepted her generous gift of a thing I don’t need, haven’t asked for and can’t plan for yet.

She then goes on to question me about my kitchen design ideas in some detail, picking out all the ways in which my kitchen design doesn’t meet her needs. It’s a tricky conversation because she hasn’t attempted to visit my home in over four years. Obviously it is my fault she doesn’t visit and my design choices (that I’m largely making for my husband and kids actually living in the house) are selfish and deliberately done to exclude her.

And all because of a kitchen aid.

Stand up argument between me and my mother last year because for my birthday I did not want an air fryer. She wanted me to have one. She mentioned it over and over for months. It never would have affected her life in any single way bar the fact she was being a petulant toddler and wanted to get her own way.

We went no contact last december when she rang my childs school to say I was neglecting him (she did other things too as she is unhinged) and to be a petty child myself I went out and bought myself a state of the art air fryer, took a picture of it and posted it on social media. It was childish of me but fuck it I knew it would piss her off.

They are ridiculous when they are not getting their own way.

Not petty at all. That made me laugh. It’s a way of taking back control I think xx

So what I’m hearing is that I should build my new kitchen, buy a kitchen aid and bake her a cake? 😂

Buy two and send her cakes every week!