March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@catnippy and I am in my 40s too!

It's fascinating how those who heal tend to go through the same stages.

@catnippy @Twatalert also in my 40s and also regretful that I didn’t address toxic family issues earlier. But glad I am now.

I went through a difficult time too a few years ago which made me realise how awful my family are. I couldn’t be in denial anymore and went NC with most of them.

I agree it is incredibly lonely and difficult. I feel like I am emerging out the other end better - better sleep, looking after myself more and more brain space. I still get anxious at times which I think is from a lifetime of trauma and finally acknowledging it! My anxiety seems worse now but more on the surface if that makes sense.

Anyway, glad you posted as it makes it less lonely going through this.

Well the only update I have is an 'urgent' call from another flying monkey (cousin) yesterday to ell me my stepfather is dying of leukeimia and being transferred to a hospital yesterday. I got off the phone, rang the nursing home and told there is not one thing wrong with him. That woman that birthed me will do anything for attention. I dunno how she sleeps at night.

I had a terrible therapy session this week and feel like I can't really talk about it with anyone. For a good few weeks I was so relaxed and my mind was so calm and clear and this is how I went into the session. I ended up doing a 180 within the 50 minute session and got as agitated as ever, sleepless night etc. I felt like my therapist wasn't getting me at all, wasn't trying much and didn't pick up on things and pressed on the wrong things. Like challenged my answer repeatedly when I knew my answer was authentic etc.

I'm so disappointed that my peace is gone and that I leaned into her so much, thinking 'well, this is therapy and I got to trust her'. I'm ticked off how confident she was in her approach, when it actually caused me a lot of struggle and I tried to voice that and she ignored it. The session then ended with suggestions on how to calm down. I thought it must have been a sick joke because 50 mins prior I was miles away from needing that.

"I'm so disappointed that my peace is gone and that I leaned into her so much, thinking 'well, this is therapy and I got to trust her'. I'm ticked off how confident she was in her approach, when it actually caused me a lot of struggle and I tried to voice that and she ignored it. The session then ended with suggestions on how to calm down. I thought it must have been a sick joke because 50 mins prior I was miles away from needing that."

I don't know how easy it would be for you to do, but I've been in a similar position before now and decided the therapist was doing me more harm than good, so I stopped going and tried to find a different therapist who didn't make me feel worse. But I genuinely feel that if you went to see your therapist feeling good and came out feeling bad, the therapist is not good for you. (I am not trained at all in therapy, just had some counselling for grief in the past.)

I am 60, and still carry the scars of my toxic upbringing.

My mother was a narc, my father and brother aggressive bullies.
I was emotionally and physically abused.
The three of them are now dead and for every day that I live without them in I feel happier and stronger.

I still have family members that believe I treated my mother badly and stole from her, she even told a solicitor I was coercing her for money.
The lies a narc will tell are off the scale.

I wish I had understood NPD as a young adult, I think it would have made a big difference to my life but growing up in the 70’s it was just not talked about, I was ashamed of the way I was treated and thought it was all my fault.

Schools should have something in the curriculum to teach young people to recognise the signs as at some point in our personal or professional lives we will meet a narc.

My mother would always say remember at all those lovely days we had on the beach.
She was obsessed with getting a tan!
She would lay smothered in coconut oil and fry, while we tried not to disturb her, how we never drowned or got washed out to sea is beyond me.

I

@Jaichangecentfoisdenom thank you. It did cross my mind that it might be time to leave. She was really good with dealing with my childhood trauma, but doesn't get my eating disorder, but she thinks she does and doesn't explore a lot what it's like for me.

I feel like she's made up her mind about what it's like for me when we only just started on the topic and haven't explored much at all. Somehow she linked my obsession with trying to manage my food intake to me generally overthinking things. But it's a completely separate experience. I'm trying not to gain weight and am absolutely desperate for that. I can't just disengage from the process like with other overthinking.

She kept pressing on whether I try new dishes etc and I said I do. And she just kept pushing and asked 'when was the last time you cooked something new'? I felt so much on the spot because me telling her I try new things didn't seem enough. So I said 'before Christmas', which wasn't true now that I am thinking about it. It was a lot more recent when it took me two attempts to make a lovely carbonara which I hadn't done before.

I'm so mad for leaning into her questioning everything instead of trying to explore and understand what it's like for me.

I'm going to have to raise it with her. I'm just so sad that my peace is gone and about how misunderstood I was and nothing I said could change that.

@Twatalert I didn't go the therapy route, I deal with it with mixture of denial, can't change the past, it is what it is, acceptance and NC. Mum died 6 months ago and I never think of her at all now. NC gave me peace and validation for myself, something I never got from family.
The only therapists I know are friends who are more fucked up mentally than I am, it's why they went into counseling. Personally I don't think someone can understand a situation unless they have experienced it. It's why this group is so good, we all understand and sometimes there are no answers to the shit.
Is there a support group for eating disorders? People who have found ways to deal with the thoughts, feelings and triggers?
Being made to feel wretched by your counselor is not conducive to healing.

@Sago1 I am in my 60's narc mum [now gone] enabler father, both were alcoholics and my brother was a bully.
I wish I had understood back then that it wasn't my fault, I just had shit parents and the whole family were dysfunctional. I also wouldn't have tried being kind to them in later life, they didn't deserve it.
Children are trapped in toxic families but as adults we are responsible for our own choices and happiness. It is hard as we grew up without love, safety, security or the skills to navigate life. We get there it just takes us longer. We deserve our happiness x

Binkie

Have heard good things about Beat

https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you.
@Twatalert it's worth contacting them if you haven't already. They may know some specific counselors for eating disorders that won't upset or trigger you x

@binkie163 Hey, thanks for the support. It sounds like you have truly disconnected from your mum, which must be freeing.

I needed good therapy to deal with depression, anxiety and major sleeping problems and it's helped me a great deal.

I will look into any ED groups.

If its any help I've had a few of these with mine. I contacted her to end it after one and she persuaded me to go back and talk through the issues and how she was triggering a response to my narcisstic psychopathic mum and especially the feeling of not being heard which is big for abuse survivors. She's a good sort. I've learned alot along the way from her. Hope you feel better soon.

Suddenly I am back there again remembering that coconut oil, dark brown bottle, very strong smell. Ditto @Sago1 , my mum came out in blisters. Basically frying...

@Poshneglect That's very useful. Yes, I will raise it with her and I will decide what to do depending on how she responds.

I had a therapist before who got defensive. They also seem to like to say 'I am only human' as an excuse for anything. I did end it with her and still know it was the right thing to do.

I think I am also disappointed in my current therapist because I felt really comfortable with her for the past year. The fact that I did a 180 emotionally in just 50 mins is unsettling. Was this to happen to me with anyone outside of therapy I'd steer well clear of them and see it as a red flag.

I’m NC with my DM, who is now terminally ill, as per previous post.

Have you ever told any friends what’s happening and if so do they ever ask occasionally how you are? I have very mixed emotions about my DM. I have had one phone counselling session last week which was useful (on waiting list for a set of 9 in-person sessions now, NHS TT was declined), but I have noticed that of the 4 friends I have told, 2 have asked how I am a few months later and the others never.

The counsellor said I have trauma and it felt for the first time that someone listened to me and actually gave a shi!t how I was feeling. I never talk about my issues with DM (aside from telling them she is now terminally ill) but I assume that people think because we are NC that I am emotionless and cold-hearted and not worthy of being asked how I am coping. When she dies it’s probably no point in telling anyone I guess.

Do people not necessarily understand that for some people being NC is not an easy decision and that grieving for the parent you wish you’d had can be very real. Even DH doesn’t seem to get it, I guess because his late DM was lovely.

Maybe some will say I want it both ways, I guess I would just appreciate very occasionally a friend asking ‘how are you doing’ but it’s radio silence. Equally, I have no intention whatsoever of boring anyone (and no history of doing so), I just wish very occasionally someone would ask how are you doing. I feel so alone.

@Airworld I tend not to tell people about my family situation. Most know it's not close because I don't visit etc. Two friends know a bit more of the story. Neither of them know or understand what it means to go NC and to grieve your whole past and to continue life completely on your own.

One friend keeps asking about the situation and I have told her 'a few stories' of the shit my parents pulled. But i think she's also using these to make herself feel better about her own situation. Her husband is abusive, which I believe she knows on some level but she stays in denial, and they have four kids. I'd sometimes tell her a story and she's like 'thank god I'm better with my kids'. She's a good person, but effectively an enabler and probably codependent. She NEVER asks how I am specifically related to my family situation. She cares about me, but unless someone has gone through NC or at least sees the dysfunction in their own family they have no concept of what it's like in the years leading up to it and the first months or years after.

Funnily enough the second friend also comes from a dysfunctional family. I think this is why I told them because I knew I wouldn't be judged and neither of them judge me or say things like 'but they are your parents'. But she also NEVER asks how I am. I genuinely believe it doesn't occur to her how bloody difficult it is. She has issues in her own family but until they wonder themselves whether they cut ties they have no concept of the difficulty.

Heck, my parents or brother have no idea of the difficulty even though it affects them, but they are numb and that's why I had to do it. They just think I don't care. It's also called denial.

@Twatalert thank you for sharing your experience. I also have a friend who does not have a good relationship with her DM and barely tolerates her, but she is one who has asked how I am.

Yes, think people just don’t have any idea what’s it’s like - which is to be expected - but we all know someone in life who has experienced something adverse that we won’t have experience of so does that mean we never show any empathy, ever? I think perhaps in modern times people are so wrapped up in themselves that they have no mind space for anything other than good times with friends.
I just feel sad that good friends are, in theory, there for you in good times and the not-so-good, but I guess I just don’t have those sort of friends (like I said previously, I have never been an emotional vampire). Oh well, I hope the counselling will help when my turn comes. Best wishes to you x

@Airworld yeah nobody has died so I guess it's difficult to imagine the emotional toll it takes. Mind you over the years I noticed people who aren't close to family or have distanced themselves but I had no idea either that they may have struggled. An example is my cousin. Never been close because the whole family fell out when I was a child, but I have been aware for a long time that she barely visits or calls her parents. If she visits they are very short ones even though it's a drive of a few hours.

I only thought of what she might have gone through when I stepped away from my family. I hate calling them family actually.

@Airworld my narc mum died last year, I was NC and all I felt was absolute bloody relief it was over, no regret, no sadness nothing. I didnt go to the funeral.
My husband and few close friends knew I was NC and why, I had never really spoken about my family to friends, too embarrassing.
I expect nice normal people do not know what to say, unless having grown up in toxic dysfunction how could they understand, many dont even understand NC!! they think its a family tiff!. They probably assume you will ask for help/support if needed, kind people dont like to pry. There is no set etiquette to follow regarding familial physiological warfare or abuse.

How are you doing? mixed emotions are natural, I think counselling or on here anonymously is easier to off load, than to friends, you can withdraw from here at any time, once its out in your real life you are stuck with it. I had a lot of deeply entrenched shame attached to my childhood, I didnt want that resurfacing in front of friends. You are in a weird limbo, it will be unsettling and triggering. Being terminal does not wipe her slate clean, it doesnt undo the harm or hurt, it is just another pile of shit to deal with, we are emotionally damaged adult children, we dont know how we will or should react, we can only do our best and what feels right for us. xx

@binkie163 you put this so well. Especially the shame about the difficult childhood.

Sometimes I feel like I have it tattooed on my forehead and everyone is judging me for it. We never know what's going on with someone, but I know people that seem emotionally so available and healthy that my shame surfaces around them. In such moments I am convinced they know 'something is up with me'.

I am so sorry to see more newbies joining this thread. Yes it is good we have here for support but it is heartbreaking knowing how many of us have suffered.

I had a very sad day today. Just the stupidity of wanting people to know the truth because they dont want to see it but it is sad that a person can be totally ousted from a family because of one persons lies. I just had that low feeling of being picked on and bullied and that 'why me' feeling we all have. Its unfair and most days I am dealing with it but sometimes you just think I do not deserve this. And none of us do. It still hurts though.

@Genuineweddingone I hear you. This is a wonderful community without judgement and people who get it.

Often times I struggle with the realisation that I am the only person from this family that sees clearly and that in their eyes I am the crazy and difficult one and I will remain that forever. And I want justice. I want them to wake up and suffer through the pain of realisation of what they have done to me.

@binkie163 thank for sharing your experiences, and when you said ‘being terminal doesn’t wipe the slate clean’ I think how apt that is. I think most people don’t understand these situations - to most, of course, a terminal diagnosis of a loved one is devastating so they think that for me I should just forgive and forget. It doesn’t work like that, but no one wants to listen.

My aunt #1 told me that my other aunt #2 (their DSis) has now written me out of her Will as my DM and I are NC and according to her my DM is a wonderful person and it’s all my fault; so instead my 4 cousins are her heirs instead (aunt had no DH/DC). I had no idea I was even in her Will in the first place but all I can think is how do people not understand that there are two sides to every story, and how manipulative this is? Two of my cousins are each a long-term drug addict and an alcoholic who are not interested in rehab and both been involved in criminal behaviour, so I thought how charming that I’m considered the lowest of the low! Aunt #2 is even an even worse narcissist that DM so I guess I should be thankful she wasn’t my DM.

@Airworld I think they have to see us in this very negative way to stop themselves looking inwards too deeply. I was in touch with mine once a couple of years ago after about a 10 year break. I've achieved some pretty good things in this time, live and support myself with a good job, yet she still spoke to me as if I was an incompetent idiot who couldn't cope! It was so weird, like time had stood still at her end. If the illusion shattered I don't know what would happen, but I don't think it ever will.

I'm reading a great book at the moment that is helping me figure out some more stuff, maybe helpful to others. The Tao of Fully Feeling by Pete Walker, he's on the booklist with another book. He is also a trauma survivor.