March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I’m reading along and so much resonates.
Lots of good advice here and the only thing I would add is to write things down - journal what happened and is happening everyday. It sounds like a lot but it’s what helped me realise how toxic past and present situations were. I had normalised things in my head, especially as I was always told ‘you are overthinking things and over sensitive’. So, I believed that.

When I started journaling a few years ago, I was shocked by reading what I wrote. It helped me go NC with my brothers and their flying monkey families. I am still low contact with my mother and sister. My sister lives abroad so it doesn’t feel too complicated but it’s hard with my mother. I suspect she also has narcissistic qualities but it’s not as extreme as my brothers. She has been especially well behaved around my children and partner over the years and continues to do so. But she expects a lot of being attended to and needs help with everything - even before she was an old lady! When she comes to visit, I think she is genuinely surprised by how different a life I have created for myself, partner and children. Which makes me think that she knew no other way of functioning. Her family and friends are caught up in dramas and negative lifestyles. It reminds me of the tv show Dallas.

I sometimes think I may have turned out the same and normalised everything. My siblings grew up in rough neighbourhoods, went to bad schools and had all the toxic family drama at home. By the time I came along 20 years later, my parents still lived in a rough neighbourhood and I used to get shouted at with racist slurs as I walked down the street. But their local business had taken off so they had money and they sent me to a private school, a lengthy commute away. I was fortunate to befriend some lovely kids there, who had loving and normal family lives. This gave me some stability in school and made me question many things in my family life. So, I started to break cycles which in turn increased the toxic behaviour at home. Despite all this I have only moved on from my family in my 40s but it was a gradual winding down process from my 20s.

I always had strong physical reactions and symptoms to what my family was inflicting on me. I never put two and two together. I genuinely thought I was a weak and ill person. It was the process of trying to recover from these various ailments that I began to realise what was going on.

Something I still struggle with is when to trust my gut feeling or not. I don’t want to be a flaky person changing track all the time but after a lifetime of training to shut down the gut feeling I’m not sure if I am still doing it!

I admire everyone here for questioning and breaking toxic cycles. It is very difficult to recognise these things if it was your normal since being a newborn! It can then feel like you are over reacting when you try to move on but you’re not!

Thanks for the advice from posters. Things moved quickly after I posted last week. My aunt rang - haven’t had contact with her in about 25 years but she was always the lovely, fun aunt - and she was good to talk to.

Well, what she told me differs to what I’ve now heard directly from my DM. Aunt gave me DM’s partners mobile and I text him to ask would he talk to me about DM. He responded quickly and said we will contact you later, so about 12 hours later the phone rings and it’s my DM on his mobile.

Spoke for about 40 mins, no mention of the past, she was bright and breezy asking after DS etc. Re her terminal diagnosis though she gives a different story - she said the consultant told her last week that the cancer has spread, no more chemo (she says that he said “what’s the point of more chemo? You’d only lose your hair.” I don’t believe this, which is why I’m not sure I’m hearing the truth here). Aunt said all of this, however DM says she only needs paracetamol for pain relief as she’s in very little pain, she gets out and about going to the supermarket with partner, they go for drives etc, and she’s feeling like she’s going to fight this.

Aunt told me last week that she’s about to go into a hospice and on a morphine drip, and palliative care is starting to keep her comfortable and does she think I could fly to see her (as she and other aunt intend to).

Why am I getting opposing stories? DH is inclined to believe aunt and thinks DM is hiding the reality. I really, really don’t think aunt is a flying monkey (their other sister is absolutely one, and I haven’t heard from her) - as I say, I haven’t seen or spoken to her in 25 years so I don’t see why she cares.

Strangely, while I have done the opposite of what posters recommended (sorry!) I feel like I have made my peace inwardly. I feel much more calm and that horrible gnawing anxiety has left by stomach. DM praised her partner several times for being there with her since her diagnosis, and I do wonder now if she’s ready to go and finish her journey with just him by her side. She told me she loved me twice as the conversation ended (she ended it).

@Airworld
I am glad you feel at peace with it, that is the best we can hope for. Either your fun aunt is a batshit liar or she is telling you what your mum/partner has told her, does she have any reason to lie to you?
Your mums version doesnt sound kosha tbh but yes maybe she is ready, she loves you so no lose ends/regrets.
My gut instinct is it is classic hoovering but I say that as someone whose mum used medical/health emergencies her go to bullshit.
The important thing is you feel better xx

People downplay it so much like you’re making it up you’re the problem. I’m always the one who’s done the most now I’ve totally sat out I’ve realised it all. My brothers wife had an event the weekend I was invited and asked to pay the amount to go I agreed a few weeks ago then once the fall out happened no one got in touch again. I always got on with her we’re not close but friendly then I saw the weekend on socials the whole family were there.
So they made a conscious choice to leave me totally out even though it was nothing to with them.

I got really angry and was crying this morning I get so confused about my feelings of why they do this to me.
I’ve not contacted and I won’t be but my friend saw my other brother who I am closest too and he told her we had fallen out and basically said because I’m not talking to my mom he can’t speak to me as it’s all to awkward he’s a grown man!

I am ok most of the time but have bad moments.

I really hope you find peace it’s a confusing time when an abusive person in your life dies. You’re doing really well and keeping so strong through all this thinking of you.

@Airworld I wouldn't say that's going against advice on here events seemed to take over and fingers crossed it can sort of be left like that - no big flare up before she goes. And then after you have the time ahead to heal yourself and love yourself.x

I guess @Everchanging24 you know where you stand right now even if that feels like alone.
I would rather that than in the nest of vipers.x

@binkie163 no I can’t see a reason why ‘fun aunt’ would lie. Her and DM regularly clash something terrible and always have done, so it’s no likely they are in cahoots; aunt was a bit upset on the phone saying I know we have our arguments but she’s my DSis and she’s dying and going into a hospice to have a morphine drip and start palliative care.

I have messaged my aunt saying I got a different story from my DM, but it’s nighttime where they live so no response as yet. I’m not going to get pulled into a she said/he said situation either.

@Everchanging24 it is incredibly lonely but better than the alternative. I’ve found it better to just be lonely for a while before reaching out to friends or fill up my time with random things. It can be horrible at first but then healing.

@Escapingafter50years
@binkie163
Thank you so.much for the replies. Neither of my parents care how their behaviour makes me feel, all they think about is getting their own way. Yes, I've never been able to say no to them, they have always used me as an emotional dumping ground, and they are controlling and want me to meet their needs.
They tantrum if I say "no" to anything, no matter what it is, or the reason why I say no, or how politely I say it, or if I try to offer a compromise or another suggestion. They've used suicide threats to get what they want out of me but never cared about the times that I was suicidal myself (properly suicidal, not tantrumming like them).

When I was a kid my dad would say he was depressed and going to kill himself unless I dumped what few hobbies/activity and friends I had (he was fine, he said it just to bully me, it made me cry and he'd just laugh at me). He would pick on me about one thing and tell me to dump just that, he'd say dumping it was the only thing that would stop him killing himself and he wouldn't ask for anything else, then the moment I dropped that hobby he would immediately move onto another one and say the exact same thing about that one, and this cycle repeated.

My mum would randomly wail while she was doing housework in th next room that she was dying or was going to kill herself because noone helped, I'd overhear and offer help, she'd say no, then the moment I turned to leave she'd start wailing again, and I'd end up going round in circles offering help and being turned away again, feeling confused about what she actually wanted (I think she just wanted attention or feeling like a martyr - it was like she deliberately wanted someone to overhear and she only put on this act when she knew someone was there; she never did this whenever I entered the house without her noticing).

Sometimes as an adult my mum would call and say i had to come over now or my dad would kill himself: I'd rush round and find he was fine and he didn't know what my mum had said, it was blatant that my mum just wanted me to pop round.

Now in the last few years I have had both of them begging for grandchildren, insulting me over it, saying I owe them grandchildren, and threatening to kill themselves or disinherit me if they don't get them asap. Ive tried telling them they need help if they're that depressed and they refuse it and just expect me to make it better. I used to want kids but the more my parents tantrum about it the less I want them.

My cousin recently had a baby and I have avoided my parents ever since because I know it will make them start up again (when she got pregnant they - especially "D" M - tantrummed at me and DH, and we don't want a rerun of that). Sometimes things like that set them off, sometimes it seems to start at random out of boredom.

I honestly feel like I have been forced to parent an adult who is emotionally a toddler since I was a kid myself, and I'm exhausted by it.
They have used me as a confidant for as long as I can remember and still tell me all their problems, it's the same problems over and over again, but I've never been able to tell them any of my problems. As a kid/teen whenever i tried to tell them my problems they would hit me till I shut up. (Then my mum complains that I never tell her anything... wtf does she want then? I'm never good enough for her)

Nowadays my dad oohs and ahhs over other people's kids, playing the doting grandpa figure, moaning that he wants to be a grandad and it's the only thing that will make him happy and prevent him killing himself... why was he always so shitty to me and my brother and our friends when we were the same age? He acted like he never wanted to be a father, feels entitled to be a grandfather, and has never apologised for his behaviour. I feel like the girlfriend in the "boyfriend looking at another woman" meme. And I just know that if he had a grandchild, he would get bored of it after 5 minutes and start demanding or obsessing over something else.

As well as my dad saying it to my face, my mum tells.me behind his back "your father's going to kill himself unless you..." and I think she enjoys it (when she says things like this I always wonder how much of it is her just being a messenger and how much is her putting words in other people's mouths).

I think someone on one of these threads once said that these sorts of parents love their kids but it is highly conditional love. I feel that really describes my parents and I get a lot of insights from this place. People don't believe it or understand it unless they have experienced it for themselves. Sorry for the long post but I feel a lot better now I've got all that out!

Not sure I phrased that very well... when I said "I feel like the girlfriend in the "boyfriend looking at another woman" meme," I mean I see how my dad coos over other people's kids - often complete strangers - and I wonder why he was never like that with me, my brother, or my friends when we were that age. He was the opposite, really harsh and uninterested, and has never apologised and seems to have no self-awareness of his behaviour.

@Airworld fingers crossed, definitely don't get caught in triangulation, it seems unlikely that your aunt made it up.

@DavesSpareDeckChair you need to put as much distance between yourself and your parents. They sound demented. It isn't easy but you need to save yourself.

Hugs to everyone who’s enduring the toxic ‘family’. Hell in earth.

That chapter of my life is thankfully THANKFULLY over with the death in February of my vile bitch of a mother in law aka THE HAG who abused her children and had a terrible impact on my partner Mr Monkey.

So, an update for everyone who's supported me over the years. I'm doing well, a weight off my shoulders, frankly, to know she's 10ft under. I don't think about her at all, TBH.

Mr Monkey is doing OK, he's got CPTSD and complicated grief. He took five weeks off work to deal with her death and all the paperwork.

He's back to counselling in two weeks with someone he's seen before and trusts. She's expert in trauma.

He does feel guilty about how the Hag lived her life over her 86 years - chose to live her life - but that has gone in the past and it went away with support from his therapist. He's coming out of the sadness.

He will get through it. I won some money and a trip to Paris is booked.

Love to all. X

ooh la la ! Have a great trip.to Paris. That win came at just the right time for you both x

@DavesSpareDeckChair this all sounds awful! The suicide threats must have been particularly distressing and confusing.

You need to put some distance between your parents and yourself.

I don’t know how old you are but please don’t discount having your own children based on these experiences. I used to feel that way and have actually found I am a great parent because of my terrible childhood! I have more self awareness and work actively on having a healthy relationship with my kids. I have also prioritised their mental wellbeing and mine which I’m not sure I would have if I hadn’t had emotional trauma growing up.

One thing I hadn’t expected though is that as they grow I remember little me at each of those ages which brings up some horrible memories so I struggle alone in that. So, in short don’t let your parents lack of abilities determine great things for yourself, wether it is having children or anything else.

I am low contact with my mother. It’s actually not that low for me - I see her around 4 times a year. But it is low for her as her expectation is for much more contact.

Anyway, it drives me mad that she criticises my parenting. I capped my kids gaming time and my mother was around at the time. She said to me the next day while we were alone “I was very worried that your kid wasn’t going to speak to you in the morning and be very upset with you as you took their device and ran off with it last night.”

I told my mother that I am the parent and therefore in charge of my childs’ welbeing. I didn’t think it was a good idea for them to be playing games late into the night so when I realised that happened I had discussion explaining why. Then I took the device away. She then acknowledged that I did have a calm discussion and hadn’t grabbed her device and run off.

I felt so angry at this comment. My mother often comes up with these types of comments and I just brush them off. When I say anything about my childhood she says ‘it was a different time’. No acknowledgment taken.

I know it is a small thing but I needed to vent.

tonewbeginnings

I would try and further reduce down the already low contact level. If she is too difficult/toxic/batshit for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for the kids too.

Monkey

Good to read an update from you. Do enjoy your trip to Paris.

My Nice Aunt is now in a care home after a further hospital stay. Her adult children still could not give a fig.

@AttilaTheMeerkat she is old and says these odd things from time to time. I don’t think I can go NC but agreed going even lower contact could help. It’s weird because some of her comments seem to almost come from a place of jealousy! Like she is finding holes in what I am doing as a way to bring me down. I find it weird because she can judge tiny things I do but her parenting was negligent and she justifies it as being normal or it was how it was back then or that I am overthinking things.

I recently remembered my parents setting up a mosque school (like a Sunday school for kids) in our local neighbourhood. They managed to sponsor some weird religious guy from abroad to run the school. Anyway, they bought a building and sponsored this guy (+his 10 kids etc). It was their good deed for their local community. I went every Saturday from around age 8. I hated it. This guy would smack me across the head if I couldn’t pronounce words in Arabic properly (a language I had no previous experience of). They continued to send me despite me explaining that he was smacking me hard across the head. The whole thing is weird right? I think once they made some money they wanted to show off perhaps by building this mosque school? Then I was forced to go. Anyway, it was an expensive way for my parents to indirectly abuse me although that wasn’t the intention just a side effect of their absurd lifestyle.

@flapjackfairy thank you! Merci! I never win anything so it's great. Hope you're dgoing well. X

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. I'm sorry to hear about Nice Aunt. She doesn't deserve that. X

My family’s audacity knows no bounds.

I’ve said I have five siblings one deleted me two months ago the one I’m the closest to. I still kept his partner on my socials but a few days ago I deleted all of them off there nothing personal to his partner.
This morning I awoke to messages of why have I deleted the partner I know their sensitive and demanding reasons haha
So you can remove me not see me or my kids for two months for no reason but I can’t remove you all now.
I ignored it all so he wasn’t getting a reaction so went through my oldest son.
He had college so I said to ignore the messages.
It’s actually unbelievable.

Hi. Forgive me if i cannot post this on here! I have been looking through this thread for a bit and you are all so strong!
I thought I would post on here as I am focusing on emotional abuse myself, as my mum is in an emotionally abusive marriage and has been for at least 7 years, partly to do with my Dad being an alcoholic and addicted to weed. I also have a 16 year old brother who is involved in all this mess. So I thought to widen my knowledge and understanding I would focus on this topic for my dissertation as there is this knowledge gap of emotional abuse not happening in higher income families.
The title is going to be along the lines of 'emotional abuse in middle class families'
I have to look at current existing policies and academic literature, grey literature like articles and news but also experiences! I don't suppose you could give me any ideas, pathways etc.
Thank you so much.

@Roseand2thorns you could post on the research board dedicated for asking people about their experiences.

Ask MNHQ.

@Roseand2thorns You could try contacting Helen Villiers of the Insight podcast mentioned here; her dissertation was on narcissism, in terms of the effects on adult children which is different, but she may be able to steer you in the right direction. https://liberationtherapy.co.uk/about

Also perhaps have a look at https://www.gottman.com/ , it may be of interest in terms of marriage and relationships. I know they have done research, they're very highly regarded, but assuming you're in the UK, they are American so perhaps not of much use!

I’ve had a meltdown tonight and got massively triggered today. I cried all day I didn’t eat.
my best friend sent me a post my brother put up out with my parents writing what amazing parents they are then the others commented to back it all up too I know it’s for me I know it is.
I’ve been a crying wreck all day and my partner said I need to see a counsellor as I look ill do I need to see a counsellor ?
Actually seeing they don’t care about me at all really hurts when will it stop 😢