March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Loubelle70 thank you for the reassurance. I’ve not had any contact for almost 3 weeks. I think about it daily and question my decision but more and more situations keep coming to mind where I can’t believe I tolerated the behaviour and I think I’m doing the right thing now. I didn’t want to go NC, I just wanted to have a relationship with boundaries but they weren’t respected.

They tend to go through the kids I get the same S then my sons give info and it does my head in but it’s a rock and hard place controlling who my sons talk to vs them knowing my business hate it.

I’m on week 5 or no contact but week 6 of not seeing them.
My one brother has done my head in he text me a very abrupt msg asking for sons number as his number wasn’t working. My son is 15 I sent him the number and then I called my son later that afternoon this was on a weekend as he was at his girlfriends he said my brother wanted to take him to a hobby they share sometimes on the Sunday.
Now usually the brother would ask me first and check but he didn’t then he sent my other two sons money but nothing for my daughter she’s the youngest.

I was really unhappy about this and waited till the Sunday to see if he got my daughter a gift instead. I was outside as we live on like a big green and the kids play out and I was sitting in my garden with my daughter and he drove all the way up the road and didn’t say hi and just got my son and drove off and the same on drop off.

My son came back and said that was weird why he didn’t stay to say hello but obvs he’s on their team now and I’m the problem I’m used to it.
I have thought about contacting him about leaving my daughter out but I know in hindsight that will get turned on me as the trouble maker again so I’ve left it. He also sent the money for the other two boys to my oldest sons account not mine like usual.

My mom hasn’t been in touch nor has any other of my siblings not once apart from that. It’s been a peaceful five weeks to be honest and I was crying yesterday about it I feel ok today though.

Im wondering what they will do as this is the longest they haven’t seen my daughter for so I can’t imagine them just leaving it at this. So I feel on edge they might just turn up to throw me. Who knows but it’s not over.

@Airworld - I have to agree with what Binkie said. I too was NC with my mother and did not reconcile. There was nothing there for me and I knew it. When she died (after the total shit-show created by my Highly Toxic Sister), I felt relieved.

In fact, since her death I have felt very much at peace. Like Binkie, I really couldn't give a shit what anyone thinks.

Going NC with my Family Of Origin was a big decision, but the right one for me, and I have never regretted it.

Be careful about opening that door. You already know that the cupboard is bare.

@Everchanging24 your brother is playing power games with you, he is also playing divide and conquer with your kids. Get ready for him to start being rude about you to your son's and keeping you out the loop. I would also expect him to take your son to your mum's so she can play the victim.
They want to punish you, I would seriously think about keeping your brother away from your sons, especially as he is already buying their allegiance with money/gifts. That may blow up in your face and cause problems. Don't contact him or give him access to your kids. You know how awful they are, they will be awful to your kids and start to scapegoat them after the initial love bombing. These people never change their patterns of behaviour. Hang onto the peace.

That’s what I think is happening the whole situation was just strange and when we’re talking that’s not usually how he goes about things.
I haven’t contacted any of them at all but it wouldn’t surprise me if he does arrange to take the boys out for food etc and then the others are there. I just think it’s so underhand to go through the kids like this.

When they were younger my mom would offer to babysit actively offer then I would make plans to go out or arrange something then I remember about 7 they would just turn up and drop them back and land them back onto me no warning and if I so much as said a word of wrong they would cut me off.
Sometimes it’s just cruel behaviour and never knowing when that stuff will happen.

Ive had five weeks to sit and process all of the things that have been done to me and it’s not going well for them.
I told the boys not to actively ignore but be vague and if they’re asked out to make up fake plans. When you think how pathetic it is when it’s grown adults doing this.

@Everchanging24
It is hard to process this stuff, it's deeply hurtful. Your brother is disrespecting you and using your kids to do it. It is cruel behaviour but they are not adults, they are narcissists.

I personally found it hard to talk about because it sounds so bonkers, childish and pathetic, it made me feel 'less than my peers' I was ashamed that my family behaved so appallingly, I didn't want to be judged or associated with them.

Dysfunctional families deliberately pit siblings against each other, breed resentment and unfairness. We continually react to these poor dynamics because we don't know any other way to deal with it. Looking for love and approval from people who hand out crumbs, just enough to keep you hooked. There isn't a normal way to deal with it because they are not mentally stable and in their orbit they destabilise us.
Distance and NC was the only workable option for me. You can not actively heal from this shit while you remain sitting in it.

I feel like I don’t want to forgive anymore as hard as it is and everything you say is so spot on.
I so feel like you with explaining it to anyone it’s so hard it seems childish but we’re trapped in it with them. I have a feeling this weekend will bring something new for some reason.

My partner asked my mom what I was like when I was little a few weeks ago and she goes selfish she was very selfish. I was a child all kids are selfish but they abused me I didn’t have chance to be selfish. It’s just how there’s never a nice comment always a put down there I never do that to my kids I would say the good if I was telling others.

Thanks so much for listening and replying.

@Everchanging24
I didnt forgive or forget but I did move on.
They don't deserve my forgiveness, I am not bitter about it, I don't need to forgive them to heal, I just needed them out my life.
It cracks me up when narcs call us selfish, just another word they use to control us like stupid, over sensitive etc.
Keep your cool over weekend, you don't have to talk to them or see them. Ask your husband to run interference and keep them away from you. Do not allow them in your house if they turn up, just say not convenient and you don't want to talk about it. Everything will be aimed at hoovering you back. It's shit but doable.
I learned that the best way to end something is to let it starve, no response, no action, no altercation, just don't feed it. That is our power, quiet withdrawal xxx

@binkie163 that is amazing advice it really is.

Cannot fault Binkie's advice.

Just ignore the negative people. They'll drain everything out of you.

And there it is. I make a plan to meet with my child. I spend days sick with anxiety. Her one chance to see him since she caused this shite last year and shes cancelled.

@Genuineweddingone
RESULT 😀air punch
I gotta be honest, the fact she grilled your son about holiday plans/destination, I was worried she would turn up, booked on same flight & hotel because she is so batshit.
Fingers crossed she fecks off into oblivion and leaves you alone.........doubt it though, the bullshit is strong with your mum xx

Just checking in, going to post properly later. There is so much I relate to on these threads, I feel like I'm not alone, people are articulating how I feel and what happened. It's like narcs have a textbook, why are they all so similar?!

Could you write a letter with what you would like to say to her. You don't have to send it but the process of getting it all out might make things clearer in your mind about what you would like to do.
I would feel no obligation to go out to see her or even contact her directly but maybe it would be still be cathartic to take a moment to acknowledge the situation and your feelings even whilst not being in contact with her

@Airworld I'm currently listening to Alice Roberts on desert island discs on BBC sounds and she talks about coping with estrangement from her parents and her mother's death. It might be worth a listen x

I've been trying to catch up with the thread but had to pause. My parents are leaning on me so much and I am utterly sick of it, especially when I've never felt supported by them. It makes me feel tired and I think I am reaching the end of my tether. I keep having to be their therapist and confidant, and this has gone on as long as I can remember. They expect me to make them happy and threaten to kill themselves to get what they want, and this has gone on since I was a kid.
I'm exhausted and if they say certain things to me again I might just snap. But of course if I do that then they will make out that they are just innocent victims who did soooo much for their ungrateful daughter who just attacked them for no reason 🙄
I feel that in some families the children do a lot for the parents and it is not recognised in wider society, except maybe for places like this.

@Everchanging24
"My partner asked my mom what I was like when I was little a few weeks ago and she goes selfish she was very selfish."
That is both disgusting and heartbreaking. You would be absolutely justified in having nothing further to do with her, and anyone who tries to excuse her behaviour, or who behaves in a similar way to her.

I've started listening to a new book that's out called "You're Not The Problem" by Helen Villiers and Katie McKenna, whose brilliant podcast is mentioned in the initial post on this thread. Additionally, Dr Ramani, also mentioned in the initial post, has a book out in the last few weeks called "It's Not You" (next on my reading list). I'd highly recommend you read one of these, this is really not your fault, it's a dreadful situation but not one of your making. Sadly, none of us can fix this and the best thing to do is walk away from people who refuse to acknowledge the hurt they have caused other people, or to do anything about it.

@DavesSpareDeckChair Do you feel like you're not allowed to say no to them? But they would never say yes to you (unless it was something that furthered their own ends)?

Anyone threatening to kill themselves for manipulative purposes needs to be dealt with firmly. Call emergency services. It will be established that they are not about to take their own lives and they will not do it again. And if they were suicidal, you don't have the training to deal with this, so it's best left to the professionals.

Also, start telling trusted people what's going on. I kept quiet about my narc "mother" and what she was doing to me, not realising she was smearing me behind her back. The one time I stood up to her and didn't allow her to insult my mothering, I lost all her side of the family. No loss now I realise, but it really pisses me off that I covered for her while she covered me in shit.

Have a look at some of the resources in the first post; one that might be useful for you right now is the Instagram page Understandingthenarc - there are lots of small useful sentences which you might identify with and should help you feel less alone, things like "Apparently you have become an evil person because you no longer take their shit". I've found it useful for a quick strengthen of my resolve!

Hi all,

I've not been on this thread in a long time and I've changed my username, but it's good to check in with you all.

@Genuineweddingone that sounds really tough. i totally understand where you are coming from.

That fear was what led me to cut my mother off when I did, before my kids were old enough to have phones or email addresses. It also helped me to remain no contact.

I feel for you as you end up stuck with a grandmother acting like a wonderful person and yet you know the flip is coming.

@Everchanging24 Grrr that would piss me off. I hate inequality between siblings.

I hope the peace continues and you don't have to deal with too many flying monkeys!

@Airworld only you can decide what to do based on how you feel. When I cut my parents out, I reconciled with myself that I wouldn't speak to/see them again before they died, so I was prepared for this. The question is, will you regret it if she does die and you didn't speak?

As for me, life has gone a bit shit again, but not from my parents. My husband has had an affair and now I'm getting all the gaslighting and manipulation that I got from my mother. You would think I would have married better, but clearly 19 years ago I understood nothing.

My Dad died a few months ago, and I feel nothing. No sadness or anything. My sister in law got in touch to tell me, so I managed to avoid speaking to all family members.

My mother tried to get to me via a friend of mine, who headed her off. M actually called the funeral home to get details of the funeral (they've been divorced for over 30 years and hated each other). I think it was to try to get back talking to me, but I had no interest in going to the funeral anyway.

Currently having to face the fact that I need to move back home (I'm an expat) and my husband isn't likely to let me take the kids (we've been in the Middle East for so long that this will be considered their home, not the UK.

So I'm likely to end up seeing the kids only in the holidays or having them full time alone as my Ex has made it clear he's not moving home.

He's holding the visa over my head - as I need to be his spouse to keep one. My career has stalled thanks to the move abroad and I need to get back to the UK so I can start building my career again.

ARGH - why does this always happen. I just feel broken, like nothing is ever going to go right.

**note to anyone reading this, DO NOT give up your financial independence and follow your spouse around the world.

Until I fund out about the affair, the only bank account I had was the joint one, and I had no credit card, so having to re-start my credit rating etc.

I thought i was intelligent, but clearly not as intelligent as I would like to think I am.

I will write more later, but just saying hello. I come from an abusive family. The manipulation and emotional abuse is the worst. I'm in my 40s and can't seem to break away. I've been suicidal so many times.....this seems to delight my mother because she can tell anyone and everyone how hard it is for her to cope with and how caring and wonderful she is to be here for me. She gave birth to me and then spent every minute destroying me. I'm close to giving up. But I'm finally accepting the reality. It's so hard

I've also witnessed and experienced physical sexual financial abuse, growing up with domestic violence etc etc. but they convince me that they are a truly wonderful family. I have issues, they are great, apparently, I should be and I am, ashamed of myself

@DavesSpareDeckChair I totally agree with @Escapingafter50years 'Anyone threatening to kill themselves for manipulative purposes needs to be dealt with firmly. Call emergency services.'

My mother would threaten to drink a bottle of oramorph, she never did. The old saying 'those who talk about it dont.' was certainly true of my mum.
Your parents sound really needy and demanding, it is not your responsibility to be their emotional dumping ground. Can you withdraw a bit? signpost them to services for their problems, samaritans, counsellor, age concern, carers, etc. They are supposed to be adults, let them sort their own shit out, you need a breather. If they dont want outside help thats their choice but they dont get to demand it of you.

@AliceinWonderland2012 Your current situation sounds really tough. Growing up in dysfunctional families blinds us to 'red flags' we grew up drowning in red flag behaviour so it appears normal. It is good advice to everyone to retain financial & career independence, from partners, spouses and parents. Get yourself back home, get settled and hopefully your kids can join you, dont give up hope xx

@catnippy
I am so sorry. How awful and what a lot to have survived. I hope you find this a safe place to process your past and benefit from so many wise people who understand all too well.
I didn't have to deal with anything of that magnitude myself but I get the confusion inside when you try to make sense of your conflicted feelings having been told you had a great childhood and any hint of criticism is met with outrage and a huge amount of gaslighting that only makes you doubt your own sanity.and makes you feel.like an awful person for not wholeheartedly expressing the party line. We are imagining things, too sensitive, misremembering etc etc and above all we are such ungrateful children to even hint at things being less than utopia. It is a common theme sadly but you know the truth and would be fully justified in walking away from them as your mother continues to destroy you and use it for her own ends. It is evil actually and non of it is your fault . I don't know what is wrong with some people. It defies belief. And finally the shame is theirs not yours so don't carry it with you . Keep talking . There are many.on here who.will be right behind you offering support x

@catnippy
'I'm in my 40s and can't seem to break away'
Do you live with your family? if you do then you need to move out. If you live independently then walking away is your best response to abuse. They will not change so you have to, make changes to reduce their impact on you. It doesnt sound like there is any benefit for you being involved with them.
'I've been suicidal so many times..... I'm close to giving up'
Please get proper professional help. This is a great support group but we are not qualified to help with suicidal feelings. Have you tried counselling, Samaritans or your GP?