March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

If she does arrive, you may end up with her at your home, she knows you won't turn her away. There is another thread on Mumsnet called 'cockroach cafe' it is more about practical help and support dealing with difficult oldies. How to continue dealing with them if unable to go NC. Also 'fed up waiting for someone to die' full of support and gallows humour for those in similar situation. Worth a look at both, more about coping than walking away.
@AttilaTheMeerkat header for this thread is about dealing with narcissistic parents and finding the strength to say no, set boundaries and go NC.

So this morning I wake to private messages on fb with screenshots from people saying my mother is now commenting on their family posts wishing her family was close and her kids loved her and all manner of victim shite. I dont want people sending me this. I dont want to know I want to be left alone so I have deactivated my fb account now.

No accountability. No remorse. Nothing.

@Pearlyclouds its very hard to undo all of the “training” you’ve been given all your life. You feel sympathy and empathy for them but you also know the back story and the reasons they deserve nothing from you but it is so hard.

@binkie163 GC is NC so there is literally only me.

@Genuineweddingone
It's a bit late your mum wishing all that shiite!
What does she expect after the way she has behaved. She is obviously after new fodder/narc supply from extended family, fishing for weak responders.

It's about damage control and protecting ourselves from the ripples of toxicity. It's hard not to explain or put people right but it just keeps the game/drama going. Anyone who thinks NC is easy hasn't tried it, it's like wading neck deep in someone else's shit, until the storm passes and then finally the peace. X

Oh she clearly has the backing of all her nieces and things and I dont care as they are not really people I would hold in high esteem anyway but its draining I guess knowing shes out looking for a pity party and people do see her as the victim because they only hear one side. Anyway now all I have social media wise is MN and I am ok with that. If they work out who I am it can only be this username for this specific topic and I dont care about that. I am so so tired though of it all.

@Genuineweddingone
My mum was queen of the Pity Party.
She also did the woe is me, help me bullshit.
She wasn't interested in suggestions, help or changing anything she just wanted to moan and wail about the same shit, always an excuse why she couldn't help herself.
I find it triggering in others now, if something is harming/upsetting you.....change it.

My stepdad called me

I am just so done with their games I rang back and he told me something he knows would provoke anxiety I didn’t believe him so rang my partner about it. He also agreed it was bullshit I thought they had gone away so had a break for a bit but it’s next week it must be.

They have still stressed me out though massively. It just reminds me how stress free my life has been the last two weeks without having to explain myself etc

Just checking in. Seems it's pity party time for lots of us as my M called my dad and got upset about everything. Says she hates all the conflict and just wants to be a family again. Yet there's still no acknowledgement from her, she won't address the issues, refuses to accept responsibility for her behaviour or even admit to it. Any communication from her is just denial or completely ignoring the issues I've raised and making loads of excuses. No apology, no indication that she's willing to change her behaviour or repair the damage she already caused to my 7yo. Nothing.
I don't even think it's the conflict that she hates, I think it's that fact I've set boundaries and stuck to them. It's that I'm calling her out on her behaviour and standing up for my dc.
I'm having to spend a short time in her company this weekend as other family we rarely see are visiting but there will be other trusted adults around and we will be in a public place so hopefully it won't be too painful for me and dc. If it goes pear shaped it'll be easy for us to leave anyway.

Sneaks in. I hope it's ok.

I had a difficult relationship with my mum. I put it in a box but since having my daughter in 2020 it has been sneaky out. It's hard to talk about she was a loving mother but also neglectful and emotionally abusive. Me and my sisters were raised by my grandparents and then ourselves. I was 16 when my mum realised I didn't need her and it was a problem and tried to make me reliant on her again. My sister's both had issues which meant that did become reliant on her again which she was thrilled about but I have kept her at a distance and have a one way relationship with her. Significant parts of my life I don't share with her.

As a child my younger sister used to be physically violent with me. She was having a hard time at school and that seemed to be a suitable reason for her to hurt me with out reprimand. I spoke with my sister about it the other day. She was horrified as she didn't recall much of that time. She kept saying why do you still speak to me. I replied with it wasn't her responsibility to keep me safe it was our mother's she was a child. We then spoke about a time when my sister stopped talking to me. She was acutely unwell when she was 18 and given a 50% chance for surviving the night. I was working 3h away at the time. I stayed until her condition improved and then headed back to work. When I visited her she wasn't always conscious so she did know I was there. She stopped speaking to me because she thought I never visited her. I eventually was able to reassure her that I did visit. What I learnt on the call was she spoke repeatedly to my mum about the hurt from me not visiting her and my mum never told her I did. She just let her continue hating me for something that didn't happen.

@CreatingHavoc
Your mum loves the conflict, hates the boundaries, she will be pushing those every chance she gets.

@Superscientist
Your sister is also a casualty of your mum's neglect. Causing conflict between siblings is usual abuser behaviour.

Thank you

Oh yes she was the same with all of us. As adults it's only me that keeps her at arms length. My younger sisters ill health and my older sisters domestic abuse brought them back to her which she liked. She has never liked that I have never needed her she also doesn't like that I'm the person that my sisters come to for support. I'm the fixer which is good when she benefits but when it means she is cut out she then takes it offence. I think she probably liked that I was in the bad books for not being available and she was there. I have always been academic and from being about 10 I have heard that she finds clever people intimidating and she has to find a way to be ok with a "clever daughter". Never any thought to what a 10yo might think about being called intimidating

mine is controlling and jealous anyone who buys a new house, goes on holiday or basically does anything nice and I get to listen to load of snide comments . Realise she must do the same about me , didn’t like me doing well at school or being better at anything at her so she went out of her way to sabotage my education . Wouldn’t let me have piano lessons even though my grandma was a piano teacher who we saw every fortnight and she and us both had pianos !!

I had the last laugh started lessons in my forties and love it when I told her she was angry about it, had never asked how it is going and if I mention it she gets up and leaves the room

Sat near a Chap in the Booths cafe this lunchtime in dealing with an awful elderly mother trying to guilt him into doing stuff for her. She started being a cow when he was quite reasonably saying i can't do that, you can get a taxi, you can get someone to collect that thing I don't need to do it and , when he quite reasonably said please don't talk to me like that her reply was (all together now) well you don't talk to me like that. I wanted to pass him a note sympathising and pointing him in the direction of this place - well and to tell him to just walk out on her. The thing was, as soon as I saw them, I could tell she was trouble - my parentified child/emotionally immature parent training obviously!

Having a really difficult day. Very outing but earlier this week, my mum rang the bell, left gifts for my child and transferred a large sum of money into our account. Note said to use for a house deposit. We haven't spoken in months so I have no idea what to make of this.
Feels like so many strings under the surface but equally we do need the money as we are struggling. Been trying to process the ramifications...is this an apology? a request for mending bridges? or not... Just head spinning.

This is hoovering behaviour designed to draw you back into her dysfunctional world. It’s certainly not an apology measure nor a request for mending bridges. Money can often be used as a means of controlling and otherwise making their target ie you here feel obligated.

I would return the funds to her bank account and the other items should go to the charity shop, again do not acknowledge. A response from you is what she wants because she knows she has you then. Maintain radio silence.

Hi, lurker here. Partner has a narcissistic parent and is a survivor of mental abuse. I'm never sure how best to support. I'm concerned that they have been through so much. Just wondering how some of this thread are being supported by partners.

And once again I am here to vent instead of helping. Its my sons bday coming up and we are off on holiday same week. I have raised him to be a nice and forgiving person so him being nice to my mother despite what she has done to him is not shocking but it hurts me. She apparently messaged him last week asking what he is doing on certain days etc and he told her he wont be here cos we are going away and told her where and that he loved her and its made me so sad because yes i want him to be the lovely child I have raised but she fucking targetted him and part of me doesnt want him to restart this fucking cycle of oh you hurt me and thats ok cos you are my nana. Im also a bit annoyed with him for telling her about the holiday dates and where but thats not his fault and i also now feel guilty cos i burst into tears in his bedroom and just walked out.

Every single fucking emotion and I am sick of it. My god why can i not just have the nice happy calm life i have tried so hard to cultivate for us? why cant people just fuck off. And now mammy guilt so i need to go back up and tell my son i understand and hug him while wanting to strangle her for putting us all through this.

I know how childish it sounds to say it is just not fair but it is not fair. I know sadly everyone else on here gets it and that doesnt make it better it makes it worse. I would love to see what my face looks like if I had a full 24 hours without crying i really do.

@Genuineweddingone
Well I don't blame you for being mad. I would be too. Can you not just block her on his phone. I forget how old your son is ! Sorry ! but personally I would make sure she cannot get access to him by bypassing you. It is manipulation and leaving him open to being hurt down the line as she will use him to get to.you . We know she is already saying she will see him for his birthday no matter what you say so leaving her to be able to contact him is only making his life more complex. She has NOTHING he needs . Quite the opposite in fact.
But it is done now so try to let it go and focus on enjoying your holiday . You are a great mum. It shines through your posts so don't let her destroy your pleasure in your sons birthday and your holiday x

Shes gaslighting you..read your last bit of post. Youre used to being the scapegoat. I was same.
Come off that family group whatsapp or whatever it is. Everything a narcissist does benefits them. I went NC with my mother 10 month ago, the relief is astounding. My family dynamic was like yours growing up, but with DV thrown in etc.
Keep them away from your DC...they don't deserve being around them.

@Genuineweddingone - what a mess. And you're right - it is so unfair.

I don't know how old your son is, and that will have a huge bearing on how you decide to handle this.

I agree with flapjack that blocking her from your son's phone would be the way to go, but of course in order to do this you would have to explain to your son what you are doing and the reasons why. Otherwise he would of course wonder where all his communications with his Nana have disappeared to.

Going NC is never easy, especially when it has to involve other members of your own family unit.

Please don't beat yourself up. Try to shake off the feelings of guilt. You know that you are doing what's best for you and your son, and that even if he doesn't understand that right now, it is your decision as his parent.

We are all here for you if you want to talk anything through.

I posted here last year about my DM and got some good advice. I have an update about her and I’m not sure if this is still the right place so do let me know if I should post elsewhere.

DM and I have been NC for 8 years now and she lives in my home country (long haul from UK). An aunt who lives in another country from us has Facebook messaged me to say that nothing more can be done for her terminal cancer and she is being moved to a hospice for End of Life care, and that it would mean the world to my DM for me to call her (she gave me a mobile no). I don’t know any other info and aunt offered more info if I asked, which I have done yesterday, but no reply as yet. She has no family in home country except for her partner of 40 years, who I assume is with her, and her 3 siblings live in a neighbouring country. No idea if any of them have gone to see her or are there now.

My question is what do I do? My emotions are all over the place - anger at the unresolved past, reality that the end is here for her and there is no going back, to having realised how stress-free and peaceful life is in the last 8 years.

DH said that I probably have 3 options - ignore and don’t reply, ring, or fly out to see her depending on how ringing goes. I think I know that flying to see her isn’t what is good for me. It would also cost thousands ££ to get a last minute flight plus accommodation etc as I have no one to stay with.

DH suggests I ring, with no expectations for the call to go well, but for closure for me so I don’t have regrets later. But what to even say? I don’t forgive her, but should I say that so she dies possibly content? To say this so her family don’t think I’m hideous for not declaring my love and forgiveness to my dying DM? DH says who cares what they think, but I hate to think that people walk this earth thinking I’m a disgusting person because they only know her version of events etc (I’ve never talked about anything to her family and have no intention of doing so).

If I do ring I also have no idea as yet what condition she is in, such as lucid or not, so I wonder how likely/possible that she might start having a go at me. Or is she likely to out of it a bit and not verbally horrible because the end is near and she won’t have the mental focus/ability to do that. She could ask for FaceTime, or to see DS(9) who doesn’t know her at all, which I don’t think is in his best interests at all.

I just don’t know how to handle this. Let me know if I should post elsewhere. Sorry it was long.

AirWorld

You were indeed correct in posting here.

Your aunt (who does not live in the same country as your mother does) is acting as a flying monkey and has her own agenda in contacting you. Its all very underhand on her part and she does NOT have your best interests at heart here. She's been manipulated and or otherwise used here by your mother to do her bidding for her. I would block this person and not at all respond to any and all future communications. Certainly do not fly out and see your mother!!.

It’s important to keep this thought in mind; every flying monkey is always, always, an extension of the narcissist whether they realize it or not.
Flying Monkeys are the narcissist’s extra right hand contributing to both triangulation and boundary violations. Boundary violations come when the flying monkeys follow their narcissistic leader and deny victims and survivors their rights — even the right to tell their own stories. Triangulation furthers abuse because as long as the flying monkeys keep flying between the narcissist and everyone else, nobody really knows the truth and no one communicates. It’s all a façade and a game designed to drive you crazy. Don’t let it. Stop playing. Drop the rope.

The best way to get rid of a flying monkey is to run their comments through a filter of truth, educate them if you can, and always refuse to play their games.
You need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your mother rather than the one you actually got.

Do YOU want to speak to her to say
goodbye?
i remember being pressured into visiting my father and everyone saying you will regret it if you don't. I know I wouldn't have.
i just said to him I've come to say goodbye you must be dieing. I had no idea what else to say. And I wish I hadn't bothered.
I went to the funeral because I was similarly pressured but I could not go to the wake so instead my kids and DH went for a meal together. I would never have regretted not going and more wish I hadn't bothered.

So if I was advising you I'd say don't bother if you don't want to. And certainly never care what others think about you. Stand tall in this dark hour.❤️

@Airworld I was NC with my mum, I didnt go and see her or talk to her at the end, I didnt go to her funeral and I have no regret or sadness just relief.
My mum was so unpleasant that no one went to see her in her final weeks in hospital, by then everyone had had enough of her. You reap what you sow. If anyone thinks I am heartless I dont care.

Nothing you can do now will take away the fact she may be dying (if it is true) she isnt going to repent BUT it could harm you irreversibly, it can open all the old wounds and for what? If your mum is alone that is her fault, they are preying on your good nature. Phone if you must, however the chances of you both having an epiphany of love and closure is unlikely, there is no happy ending no matter how hard we try xx
Seriously shit situation xx