March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Pearlyclouds
Please, please, please stop going round in circles in your mind, trying to find a housing solution for your mother.

Just disengage your brain from all of this.

You say she has high standards - but she's a hoarder!

She'll never abandon her hoard.

Leave her in France, don't take her calls, don't take the neighbours' calls.

Ignore it all! She's killing you emotionally and your children need you.

The sheltered Council properties are like hens teeth round here. Long waiting lists and you have to be a high priority for them which you would possibly be if she presents as homeless as a disabled person.
Honestly I hope she does this as she really needs a sheltered property.
Obviously I will be trying to get her to agree to the care act assessment even if she is in a private rental as I am not going to be taking on her care again.

pearly I'm disgusted at the prospect of your mother trying to get a council flat/sheltered housing in the UK. She is not homeless, she owns a 7 bedroom home! Albeit in another country. The thing for her to do is sell that and buy something here with the proceeds. Not add herself to the housing crisis in the UK because that's what suits her. If she's housed, temporarily or permanently, that's someone else in genuine need and genuinely eligible (someone who doesn't own a home!) still sleeping on the streets. It's fraud anyway, if the council knew she had a home elsewhere I'm sure they'd refuse her homeless application. You've had good advice from other posters so I won't repeat it and I am truly sorry for your situation, but also appalled that you'd even consider using the homeless system in this situation.

One day you won't be street homeless, you have a child, you'll be found temporary accommodation by the council if the worst comes to the worst. Once in temporary accommodation you'll be helped to either find a private rental or eventually allocated a housing association/council home. Have you applied for universal credit if you have a low income? Try not to panic about being homeless.

Your mother is not entitled to be housed by the council.
She owns property.

I hope she isn't still getting PIP.

Honestly @Pearlyclouds leave your mother to apply herself.
You don't want to be party to a fraudulent application.
You have young children. A baby.

A husband! Please concentrate on your family.

@Schneekugel that's what I was advised to do by the council to get her the social care support she needs. I mean she is essentially homeless because she can't live in her own home due to her disability. And I won't take her into mine (which isn't suitable for her anyway, a terrace with the only bathroom up steep stairs) . I've been trying to get her into private rentals but there's none suitable near me.. I've had to look further away. Which does pose its own issues as she can't drive. She would still have to try and link in with social care as she needs carers. Her house is on the market but the estate agent said it could take years to sell.. it's in the absolute middle of nowhere.

@TheShellBeach anyone is entitled to a council property it's just a matter of how highly they prioritise you. Her options are limited because of her needs due to her MS. She owns property but cannot live in it and it is for sale but may take years.
I mean she's an awful person but she does have a legitimate right to bid on sheltered council housing. The council actually said this to me!! And I told them the whole story. I didn't say 'she's an awful person' obviously.. altho I did imply that lol. They advised me to use the homeless portal. They said she would be classified as homeless.

I am gonna make her apply herself but I do think I have a duty to just send her the info I have been collecting and my advice.
End of the day I can't force her to do anything... and I am not doing anything in my name or on her behalf

You can't make her do anything Pearly, all you can do is give her the information about rentals & sheltered housing etc (if that's what you want to do, personally I wouldn't even do that) and let her get on with it. I wouldn't give her your advice - it sounds as if the more you suggest the more likely she will be to do the opposite anyway, just to be stubborn and spiteful. If she doesn't to what's in her own best interests that is not your fault and you must stand firm that you won't start doing it for her.

But please, as the others have said, once you've done that step back

Do not try to get her to agree to the care act assessment . She won't appreciate it and will probably make your life hell if you try.

Stop letting her take up so much space in your head and your life. I know she's your mother but you need to take of yourself and your own family.

@Pearlyclouds hopefully she won't get on the plane and you can get your address off her benefit/pip shenanigans. I will also guess your mum hasn't been doing her tax returns in France! she is fiscally resident here unless she has notified HMRC. It's a shit show.
Tbh estate agent is correct, old, unmaintained house in middle of nowhere will be hard to sell.
There was a good thread recently 'i blame escape to the country' all about retirees moving abroad or rural with no family near and can't cope. You should take a look, a real eye opener.

@binkie163
Yeah I think they were realising that.. my dad had been taking steps to try and sell up and move them back to the UK before he died. I honestly do not know why they ever moved to the absolute middle of nowhere knowing she was disabled... I dunno what they thought would happen. But my mum is notorious for not giving a second thought to the future and just expecting to be looked after. I mean if they'd been in a city or near an airport or closer to a port... but as it stands it costs so much to actually get to her or transport any of her stuff.. there's also fk all social care available to her (and the home help that was foubd for her which was once a week, she just sejt away anyway) it's been a nightmare. We racked up a load of credit card debt getting out there and bringing her back to the UK the first time...
If she doesn't get on the plane back I may have to cut all contact as I really cannot do anything more for her. Doubtless the couple helping her will be on my case about it but the situation she will be in is a natural consequence of choices she has made.
It's just so hard when her actual life is at risk. But wtf can I really do without ruining my own life? So I kinda do hope she gets on the plane because at least I'll know she's safer here in the UK in a town and more able to navigate social care.
She's caused me a lot of pain but I don't want her to just be left to die. I mean in my darkest moments I've had the thought it would be a relief if she just died.. but in reality if that happened I would actually be very upset about it. She's awful but she's a human being.

@Gerwurtztraminer thankyou x

Has anyone else got involved with an unsuitable ex after cutting off toxic parent/s? I'm currently kicking myself after I intentionally sought out support from my children's dad. We were (are) likely trauma bonded. Both grew up with abuse. He's my only actual physical support. I have no support network and he lives very close so it's very difficult to not have contact with him. Ended up spending time with him over the last 2 weeks since blocking my mother. Essentially seeking support from the wrong person. Obviously things got quite emotional and one thing led to another and now I'm regretting it. We won't get back together or anything but this is just another example of me not being able to let go of people who are not good for me. Of how enmeshed I am with him. Of how badly my childhood trauma has affected my adult relationships. Feeling quite pissed off with the situation and with myself right now.

@IAAP
in a weird way - or maybe not - it’s a comfort to know other batshit parents are out there. Mr Monkey’s colleague has an equally appalling mother as his mother The Hag.

@Pearlyclouds
Your mum is hedging her bets and she really does think you’ll take on her care and/or host her. Block her neighbours. Your mother is NOT your responsibility, she’s completely self-indulgent. Get in touch with social services in France and get them to sort it out, if that’s an option.

@CreatingHavoc stuff like this happens and you recognise the root cause. It’s good to be listened to, but not by him. Have you been able to access counselling?

@Onedaystronger support is out there. Hugs to you.

@MonkeyfromManchester I've been having therapy for over a year now. It helps and I feel like I'm more aware of what's going on and more capable of setting boundaries but I think feeling lonely, stressed and vulnerable got the better of me recently.

In other news my mother replied to my email yesterday. Full of denial as expected. Called my setting of boundaries 'rules' that she clearly doesn't want to stick to. Ignored the fact that my youngest does not feel comfortable with her and suggested the best way to build a better relationship with her is to have her all by herself. As if I would allow that at this point. How can someone be so delusional and detached from reality?!

@CreatingHavoc it's just a game to your mum, a game that is all about winning and ignoring your 'rules' good try mum, havoc is onto you!
We all get lonely at times, it is one of the most uncomfortable feelings but it is just a feeling, it will pass. X

I have found my people will come back to share my story but want to mark this so I can come back.

I’ve read some of your stories and some sound very familiar to me. I grew up with four siblings one older the rest younger. The younger ones had a different dad.
My stepdad was very abusive as a child my mom was an only child and lost her mother young and her father walked out.
My stepdad abused me the most verbally and mentally. I was constantly grounded for trivial reasons.
He used to make me sleep in the dark which I was terrified of I was seven when they met.
He made me sit upstairs away from the family he would turn off the electric upstairs and sometimes downstairs so we would sit in the dark for hours on end.
He would make me eat the night before dinner if I didn’t eat that night I would eat it the next morning. He would hide my clothes so I either had to wear uniform on wkends or pjs.
He wound throw cold water over me and my mom too if she stuck up for me. My mom did leave a few times and we went into hostels one time we even moved to London but always went back to him.
she stuck up for me to an extent but not as much as she should of done. My younger brother who was his child was also a target but not as much as I was.
My older brother got away with it all and he could do no wrong he even used to get my older brother to hit me so he didn’t even have to do it himself.
I left home at 16 just after my exams and moved into an older friends house and she put me up for a year my relationship improved with my mom and stepdad when I left.
I stopped talking to them for a period of time but I had literally no one else no cousins no aunts no uncles so I always went back to the dysfunction I was used to .
Fast forward to now and they pretend nothing ever happened when I was a child it’s all forgotten. A few years ago I was at their house and he told me to F off so I attacked him physically he threw me out the house I think I kept it all inside for years and I just exploded my mom hid upstairs and wouldn’t come out while we basically fought in the street and I told him exactly what he was and he never come for me to my face after that but behind the scenes I know he back stabs me.
To the world we are a perfect family we go for meals we have nice houses my brothers and sister have good jobs nice cars my sister went to uni and has done well for herself but she was never abused like I was.
I stayed close to them after I had kids as like I said I have a very small circle.
My stepdad does treat my kids well and always has I know it’s guilt he spoils my daughter like she’s a princess and I had no choice in staying close to them because I feel bonded to it I know that.
They do fall out with me a lot though and then turn my siblings against me happened just last week and they have contacted me again since after I asked them to take my son to an appointment. They either move heaven and earth for me at some points or the next I’m treated like I’m S.
I know my mom does love me and we get on most of the time but I see she had his ways and they scape goat me still. My next youngest brother who I’ve always been the most close to turned on me too recently over something petty I know they have been meeting up and talking about me again because of what he was saying.

I just can’t believe I’m still in the trap of it with them at my age my moms blocked me on all avenues so I have no way of contact unless I asked the kids which I won’t do as my kids think the sun shines out their arse as it is anyway .

They know everything I’ve gone through recently with my sons mental health and my other son being unwell and having heart tests but they don’t care it’s all me me me.

They message my sons to see if they’re ok but haven’t asked me how they are or anything since my minor offence the other week.

My brother messaged me and said I should say sorry and I have to say sorry or she won’t speak to me but I did nothing wrong she was the one who started on me .

I feel so down and so depressed if I ever bring up the past my mom shuts down or says she doesn’t remember sometimes she says she does remember but it’s in the past now and we need to move on.

I did try and shut it all out but when we fall out it comes back and I get really low again I’m like co dependant with them and I’ve never known why is this normal ?

Im glad for this thread I’ve never told anyone what my life was like growing up I told my partner and he is shocked I don’t think he fully believes it all because their not like that I front of him and their nice to my kids. Don’t get me wrong my mom was abused as well she’s a victim in it too I know that but a lot of times she stood back why ?

I don’t get why my siblings never contact me I’m paranoid they talk about me I know my older brother will be messaging soon and telling me I’m wrong and need to say sorry but I’m not doing it this time guys 😞

Thanks to anyone who made have read that but just to add I was also third parent to the younger three from 9 upwards.

That sounds like a lot. It sounds like deep trauma bonding.
Your mother did not protect you. End of. So step father was physically and mentally highly abusive. You might want to look at NC taking a break and getting some counselling. I’ve done 3 years of therapy and in a much better place now. But why you are seeing them and engaging you can’t heal.

My mother was emotionally unavailable but would stand by whilst my father beat me to a pulp - occasionally going ‘Oh x you have gone too far - she’s bleeding’ whilst hissing at me ‘say you’re sorry you wound him up ‘ etc it’s very hard to unpick / I would say I love them that o adore them and want them to love me and want them to pick up the phone and say sorry. But they don’t love me, they words are lies, they have had 50 years to be decent parents and grandparents and the truth is I love the people I want them to be the good bits. I don’t love the bad bits and a bit like a double headed coin I can’t have the coin with Just one side it’s got two. I’d never know when it will flip.

I’m so sorry your Dad hit you and your mom did nothing it’s truly awful to experience the abuse.
Do you have any illnesses at all? I got an auto immune disorder when I was 21 when I got to 28 it went into a remission for a few years and I was ok for a bit then when I was 33 it came back.
I can’t work anymore due to it and I did some research and it’s common in children who were abused due to nervous system response. I told my mom a few months ago it can be caused from trauma as a child.
My mom said ‘what trauma you had no trauma as a child’ like non of it happened all I had was trauma for 9 years.
They make me feel crazy I tried to speak to my older brother once and he literally just acted like I made it all up and said he didn’t remember any of it it’s unbelievable.
When I was doing my exams he wouldn’t give me my uniform so I went to school in my own clothes for a few days but in the end the teacher pulled me aside and I said my stepdad won’t give my uniform so I get into trouble so they called social services.
The social worker interviewed me with him in the room and I couldn’t tell her everything he was doing to me so they took his side and nothing was done.

Im not getting in touch with them now so maybe this time i can go NC.

@Everchanging24 I can relate to holding everything in and then exploding, especially as family pretends that nothing happened. What you went through sounds like a lot!

Bringing it up or getting angry at your family will do nothing. If anything it will keep you trapped as they will then expect an apology or make you out as the inadequate one in the situation.

Be angry, upset, grieve etc and find people, books, podcasts and a therapist that can help you do that. It sounds like you know that your childhood and current family dynamics are unhealthy for you, but you feel stuck with them. It’s ok to feel alone or lonely for a while - it’s better than the toxic crap! I say this as someone who was also stuck and scared of being alone.

Came across this from Mark Manson (his blog + books are quite useful);

“taking responsibility for all your problems alleviates more suffering than it generates. Most people assume that if you take responsibility for all of the pain in your life, you will feel worse about it. But the opposite is true. The more responsibility you take, the more you empower yourself to actually do something about that pain.

That’s because you give power to who you blame. When you blame someone else for your problems, you are giving them power over you. You are allowing them to define and dictate your happiness and well-being. This is completely stupid and not worth it.”

Everyone posting here has gone through a lot and it’s horrible stuff. It is possible to come out of it though. Don’t give power to the shitheads.

@tonewbeginnings good quote/post.
It is difficult to find a polite way of saying take responsibility for your own choices.
We had no choice as children but we do as adults. People remain in abusive situations for many reasons but it boils down to not taking responsibility for themselves.
As adults we can choose to have boundaries, be financially independent, self sufficient and be treated with respect. When you hand that power/responsibility to others they control you financially, emotionally and physically you infantilize yourself.
We are responsible for our own lives and happiness, no one else.