March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I was just curious about the thanks thing really. I have now turned off the notifications though as someone above said they did and I had not known till then it was an option so thanks without my 'thanking' you lol

Morning everyone. Sorry in advance for a long post. This is my first one on here and just need a bit of a hand hold if that’s okay. I think I’ve just gone NC with my parents and I feel sick and sad and very conflicted/confused.

I was pointed toward this thread from another thread a little while ago and I’ve found the resource list really helpful. Through therapy and reading I’ve discovered over the last few years that I likely grew up with two narcissistic parents. Like the poster the thread is named for it took me a long time to realise my childhood was abusive, because we were given piano lessons and taken on holiday and went out for family cinema trips. I didn’t understand until recently that some of this was to create that perfect family image to the outside world. Also, sometimes we’d have a really nice time together and I’d feel guilty for being angry with them.

At home there was constant conflict: screaming, name-calling, objects being thrown around, and infrequent physical assaults (although this only ever amounted to pushing or throwing of small objects between parents and ‘smacks’ for us children). DF’s go to move was to shut-down. He would leave the house when DM was being extreme or go into another room and refuse to engage with anybody. Outside he was Mr Popular, very personable and successful, but we got a cold and critical man at home. DM was the more volatile one in that she would rip all of the clothes out of the wardrobe or try to get out of a moving car on the motorway. If she got no response from DF, DB and I would get the backlash. Her behaviour was blamed on how DF responded to her. As the oldest, I was the one more in the firing line. There was a large degree of emotional incest and enmeshment. From around the age of 8 (although it could’ve been earlier) I was DM’s sounding board/rescuer and she frequently listed all of the ways that DF was not meeting the mark as a partner or father. She would often get hysterically upset and it was my job to pick up the pieces and fix their relationship. When my parents weren’t able to parent because they were focussed on their conflict I would also look after DB. There is a long running ‘joke’ that I was the only adult in the house.

It would take a long time to go into all of the history because there is a lot but essentially since I became pregnant with my first child a couple of years ago I’ve gone LC. We see them occasionally but my DS isn’t left with them and meetings are mainly done on our terms. DM said she wanted to see DS once a week but I was clear that wouldn’t be the case and it averages out to around once a month. I am very close with DH’s family which has been a bone of contention. I now shut down any conversation about them.

Every time I see parents I come away feeling bad and worried about the impact it will have on DS. To be fair to DF, it is mainly DM who is the instigator these days. The most recent fixation is my diet and what we feed DS. I had a long-standing eating disorder as a teen/young adult. Coming out of that, my diet was still very restricted for years but I’ve got to a point now where I will pretty much eat anything and we have a lot of variety in our meals. I also love food again and actually enjoy eating. However, according to DM I should avoid chicken because it will make me resistant to antibiotics (although I apparently shouldn’t take those either). DS shouldn’t be drinking cow’s milk because it’s bad for him. Toddler DS had his first taste of chocolate over Easter (two chocolate buttons) which we were excited about but we shouldn’t give him chocolate because it’s terrible for him. I am also pregnant and was asked why none of my cravings are for healthy things like fruit. (On a whole other topic I was told to ‘try to have a girl’ despite already being pregnant).

Last night there was a minor disagreement on the family group about how DM had behaved a little manipulatively. I had very calmly pointed out her behaviour and then grey rocked. She messaged me later and asked very sweetly if I was okay because I seemed unhappy. I told her I was going to bed as I had to be up early with DS. She said I had been ‘off’ with her for a long time (since I put boundaries in place). She pushed and I’m not proud of how I responded. I wasn’t rude but I was blunt. I feel like that’s what she wanted as it resulted in some very long messages about my poor behaviour. It culminated in me saying that I no longer wanted contact with either of them and blocking her number as I could see she was still typing and it was 1am by that point.

I would like to put some parts of the messages she sent on here if that would be okay, as I can’t really trust my evaluation of them. She says things so reasonably that I can’t always be sure if it’s not me in the wrong. I woke up today feeling devastated and emotionally hungover. DS is napping now so I have some time to sort my head out.

@TheFirstFloorFlat sorry to hear you’re going through all this. It’s good to share here - I’ve found it useful.

As you’re pregnant and have a young child, try to put your emotional and physical wellbeing first. You don't even need to share your boundaries, in fact it is better not to as narcs tend to use that against you. But do have firm boundaries.

@TheFirstFloorFlat trust your instincts, I will guarantee you that your evaluations are correct. We have grown up being manipulated, gas lit and made excuses for poor parents.
I was also the grown up in my family, the reliable one, parentified.
Going NC is confusing, conflicting and upsetting. I thought if my parents understood how I felt they would change and we could all get along. If they would only try to understand....wasted energy.
We have free will and personal responsibility. You can choose to accept how they are and how it makes you feel or you can think fuck that, life's too short, I deserve to be loved and respected by the people in my life. My experience was there is no middle ground Xx

Can I ask what position you are on the family and what your mother is?

Both my parents are eldest children and they ALWAYS sided with my sister - the eldest always. I was always (apparently) lying or too emotional or too sensitive. Sister got a house and a car brought for her and I was told I was ‘jealous’ of her - well yes!! You brought her a house and a car and I got nothing.

When we moved in with them, they immediately sided with my eldest - she could do no wrong but her younger brother was ‘a shit and a liar and stupid’ …… again projecting and eldest lapped it up - it’s great being the favourite. It was only when I removed them that eldest started to see all the bullying that her youngest sibling was subjected to.

meanwhile my parents like my sisters child - she has one son and out of brothers she likes the eldest …. It’s easy to see a pattern when you look at it.

Agree - I give thanks to lots of stuff without posting on the thread. There isn't a concept of a "group" is there like on Reddit where you join a community so there will be lots of people who are in the group, the group being having rubbish /abusive parents, not a group that posts.

@binkie163 I thought I’d feel relieved at going NC but I just feel sad and panicked like I’ve made a terrible decision. It’s my son’s birthday party in a couple of weeks and I’ve told them not to come. I didn’t want the drama on his day but now it will be awkward explaining it to people.

@IAAP I’m the oldest out of me and DB. My mother is the youngest of four. It’s funny you mention the position in the family as I often felt like an older sister calming down a younger sibling when she would melt down. DB has definitely had an easier time of it in some ways but we’ve tried hard not to let that cause issues between us as we’re the only ones (other than our parents) who know and understand the bizarreness of our upbringing.

@TheFirstFloorFlat I went NC after an extinction event arguement, half way through I knew that was it, I hung up and blocked my parents and siblings.
The first 2 months were rough, I was full of rage, anxiety, self doubt etc my parents were very old and frail it felt mean but I knew I could never waste another minute of my life being kind, helpful and USEFUL to them. I had tried low contact, my mum got worse the older she got, more selfish, greedy and demanding.
After 2 months the rage just went, I felt calmer, happier and at peace. My mum died 10 months later, I felt no guilt, regret, just relief, it was over.
I put up with years more bullshit than I should have, it eroded my spirit and I knew I would be walking away from any inheritance.
I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks, they didn't have my childhood, unbalanced parents scar you for life. The constant drama wears you down physically, mentally and spiritually, I no longer had the energy or headspace for it.

@TheFirstFloorFlat - do take a moment to look up FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) which is the thing that keeps us tied into the dysfunctional family dynamic. Also read about Trauma Bonding. It's very hard to break free of these things.

Going NC is deeply painful, but is the only way forward for many of us. It can be the beginning of a long healing process.

One of our lovely regulars, @binkie163 , describes going through all the feelings of rage and so forth for 2 months before feeling better. I think this is an unusually brief recovery period. For some of us it takes a lot longer, perhaps years, to come to terms with family estrangement.

hi, I haven’t posted in a while and it was probably a different username. About 2 years ago we had an incident in our family that, combined with counselling and this thread helped my understand that there were BIG problems with the way we were raised and the relationship my siblings and I have with our mother.
I haven’t gone no contact but I have reduced contact as have my siblings.
The problem I have now is that my eyes have been opened and I can’t stop seeing things that were always there but I had accepted as normal. Every interaction makes me sad.
She wants/needs to control my sister. My DS is aware of this and puts boundaries in place but I find watching her attempts really upsetting. My DS doesn’t have kids and I think my mum thinks she owns her.
She shows no true interest in my kids, she says she does and she shows them off to friends and neighbours but she knows nothing about them really, she never asks after them or asks them questions about their lives when we visit.
She’s very unkind about other people, even her own friends. And a huge snob.
This is the tip of the iceberg. But every visit or call is like a series of paper cuts and it gets increasingly painful each time.
I’m also cross because I’ve realised that the way I was treated as a child has had a profound impact on my career. I’ve done ok, but I could have done better. They never built me up, they only ever tore me down for my “failures” so I’ve carried them around with me my whole life and the penny has just dropped that they aren’t real.
Sorry I just needed to write this down somewhere.

@Sicario
I never had a family I could rely on so I didn't have anything to lose but the illusion. I gave up hoping things would change or get better.
Hope is the thief of joy.

@binkie163 I’m sorry you had to go through that. I really hope the relief does come as for now I’ve just got a tight feeling in my chest and a strong feeling of regret. I’ve gone over the messages with my husband a few times now and they were full of manipulation and blame. She was rehashing things we’ve spoken about so many times before, plus some new things about how I will be damaging my children if I don’t let them know their family. I feel angry that I was almost backed into going NC. I didn’t get to do it on my schedule and in the way I wanted.

@Sicario Thanks. I’m having a look now. I do feel incredibly guilty. It’s a decision that doesn’t just affect me and I worry I’ve done the wrong thing.

Quick update before I go to bed with a headache. The mother was in my local supermarket today. She lives a 40 min drive from me. I nearly died when I saw her and she had the nerve to give me a dirty look when I saw her.

Anyway I get home and then this evening one step brother who doesnt live in the country gets a call from her from the nursing home to talk to his dad and then out of the blue says to stepbro 'oh and I will be seeing 'my ds' for his birthday like I always do'. Wtf like I assume she told him so it would get back to me and i would message her? She wont be seeing ds this year cos we go abroad every year for his bday anyway but why she said it to a man not his uncle and not in the country for is bizarre.

I would also describe what I had as an extinction event argument. Mine was face to face with the mother, was made to feel worthless in comparison to golden child and none of my feelings were considered. I left the argument in tears. Since then I have had no desire to meet up to try and resolve things. NC since 2019 and blocked siblings and parents on WhatApp. What was said to me by the mother I will mentally not recover from and I have realised what a narc she is with enablers. Such a toxic family I want nothing to do with but it's still hard

@Goldenmario
“I’m also cross because I’ve realised that the way I was treated as a child has had a profound impact on my career. I’ve done ok, but I could have done better. They never built me up, they only ever tore me down for my “failures” “

This resonates as I had extremely low self esteem, panic attacks and felt I was worthless during early adulthood when most people were building up their career. When I graduated and got my first job instead of congratulating me or celebrating in any way my mother said “what was the point, if you were going to turn out like this it would have been better not to study and get a job”. I spiralled downwards for a while after this as it was a shock. Even thinking about this now makes me cry. I was 21 - I wish I could go back and tell myself something comforting. I have wondered what my career would have been like without all the self doubt. I’m attempting to correct my career now - I have a small business that does ok but never matched my ambitions as I never thought I was good enough to exist never mind do well. So, I am just going for it. During a presentation for work a couple of years ago I was quivering, my voice trembled and I was shaking. It was after a period of intense bullying by my brother who is 20 years older than me - this is when I linked my self doubt with not being able to reach my career potential.

i went NC with him. Him and his wife had been bullying me since my earliest memories around age 5. I inevitably internalised and normalised it until a few years ago for some reason! My parents often left me in my brother and wife’s care when I was a child. A few summers my parents went on holiday and left me with them! My mother recently told me that was a bad idea - no apology though.

It’s never too late to turn your career around. Also, perhaps under the circumstances you have done well. I sometimes think about how badly things could have turned out with everything I was dealing with.

I worry about generational trauma and whether I am passing it down to my own kids.

Since you know about this happening, I'd say the reason for it was to recruit the step brother as a flying monkey and have him tell you what she's said, so as to upset you.

@Schneekugel that is what he said himself but said he would let me know anyway as he was telling me how he dad is. It doesnt upset me in the least as we will not even be in the country but how she thinks she can see my child without my permission is amusing.

Anyway Monday morning. I am going to get stuck into work and into my own things today and hope for no more crap. I want to also get a chance to read other peoples posts too so thats a plan for this week too as my head has been so addled lately.

@Genuineweddingone - turning up in your hood and loitering around your local supermarket is a typical narc move. Another boundary-breaker, forcing you to "see" her.

Ignore, ignore, ignore.

I have posted on previous threads, probably under different names but basically I'm 3 months into NC with my entire family after attempting to disclose SA by my stepfather to my mother. I say attempting as I was shut down and dismissed (as expected) which is why I am now NC. I'm doing ok I think, still hurt and disappointed but getting there.

I'm posting now because yesterday I had to deal with my first 'emergency' without them, DH was rushed into hospital and I would normally have turned to them for lifts to the hospital/emotional support etc, I don't really have anyone else. And I coped, on my own, just fine actually! Got DH to hospital, sorted (teenage, autistic and very upset) DD, got myself to and from the hospital as needed and, mostly, held it together emotionally.

It probably doesn't sound like much to some people but (I now realise) my relationship with DM was horribly codependent and I feel weirdly elated that I'm clearly more capable than she would have had me believe. I'm realising more and more that the family I thought I had was a complete lie, what I thought was love was actually them keeping me small and reliant and stifling who I actually am, which is a total headfuck tbh.

So a weird mix of emotions today, relief (DH is being discharged as soon as he has his prescription and cannulas removed), pride/elation that I can cope without them, and fury, because they made me believe I couldn't all this time. I don't really know where that leaves me, moving through the stages I suppose, I've done sad so maybe now it's time for the angry phase?

Well done @Richandstrange I’m really pleased for you that you coped, that you have had this revelation and that your husband is being discharged!

it’s interesting that you looked to them for support in the past? Do you think they gave it? I used to think my mum was giving support but now I’m thinking she was more often feeding off the drama.

I dont know about the NC staged but I think you are right to be angry that you have been held back by them.

Remember how you feel right now about what you’re achieved these last couple of days and try and use it to empower yourself. Try and use all your anger energy in a positive way.

@Richandstrange Well done. That’s not a small achievement at all and shows how strong you really are.

@Richandstrange well done, and I'm glad your husband's out of hospital now.