March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

I just wanted to thank everyone for their replies. To clarify, my eldest is autistic and is easily manipulated by my mother, which is likely why she favours her. She doesn't seem to have picked up any of her toxic traits though, thank christ. She is very much her own person and my daughters get on well the majority of the time. It's just my mother who deliberately stirs up the discontent between them.
Thank you @Escapingafter50years , I will check out those links. I'm really down about everything today.

@Epiphany24 sorry you're going through similar. I'm struggling to understand how anyone could treat any child this way. I think the only possible way we could see my mother is if we were around other adults at the time but I really don't want to see her atm and I don't want my dc to see her either. Too much damage has already been done. How do you manage to stay calm around your mother?

Oh my goodness yes. I lost my gives an eff filter. Something to do with probably being about halfway through my life and the kids being grown and away. It also was the oomph I needed to finally go non contact with toxic FOO.

Kindly, does your father know who you all are still?
You're not being unreasonable to only go once a year as it's costing a lot financially and emotionally for you all. If you're going because you feel guilty then I'd be thinking about whether your father would want you having all the journey, expense etc.

@CreatingHavoc Thanks, I think my situation is different in that my mum isn't outright mean to my youngest, she just obviously (at least to me) favours my eldest and always has done. Literally, right from her coming to meet newborn dc2 for the first time, I opened the door to her whilst holding dc2, she just said 'Aaahh...where's dc1?' and went off to find her. That was her first meeting with her new grandchild ffs. So yes, this behaviour is annoying to me but as we don't see them very often, I don't feel that it is harming my youngest. Both dcs value having grandparents but I don't feel that they are a strong enough presence in their life to really be affecting them with this behaviour. I compensate by giving dc2 lots of attention when we see my parents and stepping in if I need to facilitate interactions between my mum and the dcs. Tbh, my youngest is scared of my mum as she finds her too 'in your face' when she does talk to her, so is happier being ignored by her anyway. I also have a number of other issues with my mum's behaviour, the above is only one part of it. I manage to stay calm by limiting contact so there is much less opportunity for her to say or do something that will make me angry. I never ask them for any favours, they babysit very occasionally (maybe once a year on average) at their request. I don't ask them for anything else, so I think this helps reduce their feeling of 'entitlement' somewhat. I know from experience that there is absolutely no point in getting angry with her. It will just end very badly. I guess what has changed for me over the past few years is that I now try and have an adult/adult relationship with my parents if possible, at least from my side. I think there'd still been quite a strong parent/child dynamic between us up until then. I have also tried to accept my mum a bit more for who she is, flaws and all. She's still extremely hard to deal with but I think I've kind of reset my expectations of her. This is all helping me cope better for the time being, though I still feel like my mental health is far too affected by her..something I need to work on

Have lurked for years and now finally posting. Hello 👋

Very busy week here so no time to read back but having upended my life last year out of nowhere, ringing my sons school, getting social services involved in my life, ringing everyone she could think of to bitch about me, call me an alcoholic, addicted to prescription drugs (seriously if i wanted to be addicted to something it would not be the 78euro per month concerta i take ffs) im violent, i am a bad mother and god knows what else I wake to a text from her saying WE need to end this feud and she is prepared to discuss things so she is leaving the ball in my court to ring her.

Feud as if somehow this was also my fault. I did none of this. I am paying 60euro an hour to a therapist because of all this ffs and refusing to engage people but shes lied so much i now have no relationship with either sibling nor any of my cousins although the last bit might be an upside but putting the ball in my court meaning if i dont reach out she can tell everyone that shes the victim and i just want to be nasty or whatever. Honestly i just want to be left alone to live my life.

Do you find therapy useful @Genuineweddingone ? I tried it and my therapist was b useless.

I tried two others over the years and did not gel and then a friend gave me the number of the one I am seeing now and shes is amazing. I think you need to find the right therapist for you. I have had so much going on lately that yesterday morning I thought I was going to have a breakdown so I contacted her and she fit me in as an emergency and I came home, thought about things and woke feeling better today so yes she does definitely help.

@Genuineweddingone the ball is now in your court, praise the lord! Kick it to the curb, kick sand over it and never look back. Xx
New mantra in your life:
Those who matter don't mind,
Those who mind don't matter.
Other people/family opinions are irrelevant and unwanted.

I can only begin to imagine how upsetting that is for you @Genuineweddingone - the total refusal to accept any responsibility for their own terrible behaviours is the stuff of nightmares for those of us who have experienced it.

I met up with a friend of mine who is a therapist (and who knows my Highly Toxic Sister and her Arsehole Enabler Husband), and told him that I really had hoped all the hatred, vitriol and slagging off would have stopped at some point after me going NC. He said "it never stops", and I guess he's right about that.

These kinds of disordered personalities (like your mother) just cannot bear to lose control of the narrative. The more boundaries and barriers you install, the more they rage. And they get more poisonous as they get older.

I too lost contact with other extended family (much loved nephews and nieces) which saddened me deeply but there was nothing I could do about that. I learned to accept it as collateral damage.

There is nothing you can do about the awful things being said about you. The only way to handle it is to realise that it says nothing about you, and everything about them. You really to have to learn to let it bounce off you like water off a duck's back. It took me years, but I truly couldn't give a shit any more.

I have wonderful friends, a loving family unit of my own which is built on love, support and respect, and there is nothing I can do about the toxic family I was born into.

Going NC was the only way for me. I don't regret it for a moment.

Sending huge support and solidarity to you. It's really hard, I know. But we are all here for you.

@Sicario it doesn't stop because THEY are still playing the game, they believe they are still wining. They are still entrenched in their dramas. A padded cell wouldn't stop their Machiavellian, mischief making minds.
Twats 🙄
NC solidarity ✊

That’s good to know @Genuineweddingone - I might keep trying. I have NC for this thread.

My DM has surrounded herself by enablers all her life and I am the bad guy as I won’t play along with her charades and falsehoods. I always suspected she didn’t like me. She has now had a fall with consequential brain damage which means her filter has been turned off. She was bitching about me to the hospital nurses in front of me so I heard it first hand (three days in a row) and it confirmed everything I had felt growing up and trying to dismiss as my paranoia and low self-esteem.

@Genuineweddingone can you just block her. You don't need to respond at all.

She's really distressing you and making you feel that you somehow owe her even more of your time so that she can kick you when you're down a bit more.

Don't give her the satisfaction. Block her.

@Zerox
Hello and welcome. x
That must have been v upsetting though also reassuring to realise you were right in your instincts all along and weren't imagining it. x

Thanks for clarifying @Epiphany24 . That makes more sense that you manage to sort of tolerate her.
I think the only option I have is either extremely low contact only when other adults are around or no contact at all.
I forgot to mention in my previous posts but I noticed that when I mentioned 'going to nanas' my 7yo visibly tensed up. It's heartbreaking 😞 I'm taking some solace from the fact that my dc have another grandma and a grandad who are lovely. If anything, the stark contrast is what makes my mothers behaviour stand out so much.

@binkie163 @Sicario @TheShellBeach @Zerox

Oh I well know the games, even the wording 'It is time to mend this feud I do not want it to impact your ds'. I mean firstly it was HER to kicked all this off. A feud means between more than one person and it was one that kicked it all off. The fact she doesnt want it to impacy my ds is hilarious as she actually picked up the phone to his school and impacted him from the second she started this nonsense.

And of course then 'the ball is in your court' so she can be the victim again as I wont be contacting her. She needs to find her drama and supply elsewhere and leave me alone now. I am done. No accountability for her actions. No apology fr what she and she alone has caused. I showed my therapist the message and as it was sent around 4am and the spellings are dreadful she wondered if drink had been taken which is ironic as apparently I am the one permanently drunk. Its just all a circus but I am not my circus and not my monkeys.

Can anyone tell me have they ever had a poster not on the group give thanks to all of their posts? I mean it could be genuine and I appreciate some peoples lives are not as busy. I only post in here under this name, different usernames on other threads. Set this initial post up with truth and continued in that vein so if any flying monkey sees the posts then all they are seeing is truth and yes my posts are outing but only on this one thread and if anyone from outside of here has recognised me I am aware I am allowing myself to be recognised on this one subject under this one username. Just an fyi.

@Genuineweddingone - I think the "thanks" thing is a new MN feature? I've been getting lots of email notifications of "blah blah says thanks" and have made a note to disable it from my notifications.

Sending extra solidarity today and hoping you get to enjoy the weird weather.

@Genuineweddingone I get lot of thanks on all my posts, often people who don't post here. I assume people who sympathise, agree with and most likely dealing with similar. I often click thanks rather than read and run.
I only post about my experience, what worked, what didn't and my own feelings. I am aware that not everyone is honest which is just creepy and weird. My family, friends etc would deff know this is me.

@Genuineweddingone I get thanks all over the boards, often from those who haven't posted themselves.
I only use this one name though.
If someone looked at all my posts, over the years, they'd probably know who I was and where I lived. But I'm not bothered if they do. My sisters don't post on here.

Personally I click thanks because I sympathise, I find people appear to be dealing with something similar to me and have articulated it better than I can, and as binkie163 says I dont want to "read and run," I want to offer some acknowledgement. I really want to extend sympathy to all posting on these threads, and I'm glad this place exists.
Edit: I have lurked for years and post very occasionally!

If anyone recognised my posts on this board I do not care. I am sounding off in a safe place where I can be heard and understood because my family do not care what the truth is, I assume they just do not want to be the next target.

@DavesSpareDeckChair :)

I get quite a few thanks notifications from across the different boards. I don't see whose username it is though, probably because I'm on my phone. This username is pretty identifiable if someone went and read all the posts, so I only use it for this sort of thing. There's nothing I've put here that I've not written to my FOO so if they wanted to track me they could go right ahead.

I decided to approach posting here in an honest way. I try not to go into too many specific details but at the same time share relevant info that helps me communicate what is going on with me and why. I have found it so helpful because I can share this here.

I think some of it might be identifying but I am ok with that. My family is toxic but I don’t think they would go out of their way to do something terrible to me or my children. They never have, it’s more that they enjoy bullying me and having a scapegoat when I meet them. All they do since I don’t see them is gossiping about me or my husband. Gossip has a habit of coming back to me via various routes!

I would be more careful if despite being NC I was in a position of being physically or emotionally harmed though. Be careful, fellow posters if this is the case.

Can anyone tell me have they ever had a poster not on the group give thanks to all of their posts?

Someone maybe shares your style of thinking and agrees with a lot of what you say. I wouldn't read too much into it. I'm not on this site much but it seems to be huge, so for every one poster there could be 100 lurkers or whatever.