Are men like cleaners?

[Superlambaanana]

And obviously the answer is ‘no absolutely not, they’re bone idle around the house’. But hear me out…

I’m single in my 50s after a lifetime of failed romantic relationships with men. Two major, longterm ones, one of which was emotionally abusive and has scarred me greatly. I feel like I have wasted so much time on men to the detriment of living my own life. Yet I still have this hankering to be in a relationship. I have a full life but I come home to an empty house and I hate being the singleton at events with my married friends.

It occurs to me that it’s a bit like wanting to get a cleaner.

It’s ideologically uncomfortable. In theory, Im against it on socialist/ feminist grounds.

But in practice, it’s widely accepted to be the norm. And going with the societal flow usually makes life a lot easier.

But even if I could get over it contradicting with my values, I still can’t get past the knowledge that ultimately I’m going to end up with someone who made me happy at first, but will inevitably make me miserable and I’ll be stuck with them because getting out of arrangements like these is always difficult, painfully slow and reputationally damaging.

So do I just keep going it alone or do I need to reframe the requirement?

I thought you were going to say "because they go out of their way to impress jn the beginning but cut corners when they get comfortable"

Get a pet - that solves the coming home to an empty house problem 🐈‍⬛️

I suppose the commonalities are you need to do a cost benefit analysis before deciding whether to engage one, choose very carefully from the group of applicants for the role, make sure you don't enter into a binding contract and regularly review performance to ensure its satisfactory. As far as feminist principles go, there are mitigations you can put in place to not stray too far from your values. In one case, ensuring you are do not exploit. In the other ensuring you are not exploited.

I second that @AltitudeCheck 🙂. I could have written the part about past relationships but I've framed the singledom as liberating. Not having to check in with someone else is wonderful!

No. You’ve been unlucky.

I was thinking exactly this!

@PoppingTomorrow 🤣 very true! But by then you're stuck with them!

@5128gap yes I do love a bit of forensic analysis. Hard to be objective about these things though! And hard to forecast unexpected risks. e.g. great on paper but awful IRL.

I'm not sure it's a great comparison tbh - (having a cleaner definitely is not the norm, and I'm not sure I'm against it on ideological grounds), but I see your point about relationships. I'm happily married and in my early 50s, but if I were to find myself unexpectedly single, I would absolutely definitely stay that way. I would have a cat. Or maybe house-share with another single woman if I could find a suitable one. Hell would freeze over before I'd consider entering the dating scene.

@pommepom I agree - I am so much happier alone than I was in my past relationships (by the end of them anyway). And yet my mind keeps coming back to the idea that I should get out there and find someone. It's wonky thinking but so many societal cues and expectations keep pushing me back to this way of thinking. And of course relationships are happy at first and we all hold onto hope that one day one will stay happy for ever. It's frustrating.

I think the risk management comes from your self knowledge and bitter experience. You know now the behaviours that have made previous relationships unhappy, and what you can't tolerate, so you would need to be very vigilant in spotting the signs of emerging issues, and quite ruthless in heading them off if you do decide to go down the relationship route. That said, no relationship is going to give you quite the level of autonomy and peace of mind of being free and independent. Share your life with someone and there will always be compromise and frustration, so it really is a case of whether that's worth the benefits you seek.

Hmm, I think you're missing the point. I'm against men on ideological grounds. I believe they are almost exclusively bad news - for women, for humanity, for the planet. I am anti men after years of first hand and second hand experience of them leading me to conclude they have almost no redeeming qualities. Yet we're hardwired to chase them. It's not the dating scene that's frustrating me - it is this paradox.

Then you need to try to listen to yourself and distinguish between your actual wishes and social conditioning. I’m a feminist who sees no ideological problem in having a cleaner, as long as they’re properly paid and treated with respect and consideration — I’m from a family with lots of cleaners, and married into another. DM, MIL and SIL all either currently or retired from being cleaners. Historically, I’ve had more male than female cleaners.

I'm 56 & Divorcing (from a 23 Yr old marriage I should have left in Yr 10 tbh) I would never marry again (my lawyers are currently messing up the Divorce & it's SO stressful !!). I'm not sure I'd even want to date again. Peace is priceless.

As a class, absolutely. However, DH, DS, my male friends and family are wonderful individuals. You’re not looking for a relationship with patriarchy, or some embodiment of it, but an individual.

@5128gap exactly. But they start out great. Like cleaners. And then inevitably go downhill. And I'm obviously very bad at being vigilant and spotting this until it's far far too late. And even worse at getting rid of them before they've done irrevocable damage. The benefits always feel brilliant and highly worth it at first. But it always seems to end up costing me more than I wanted in the end.

@Microdisney yes, I am also beginning to wonder if I need to seriously consider whether the opposite sex might do a much better job.

Sorry you're facing this. You're not alone. x

I guess with the cleaner, you actually get something out of it. With men, not so much.

Hmm, I think you're missing the point. I'm against men on ideological grounds. I believe they are almost exclusively bad news - for women, for humanity, for the planet. I am anti men after years of first hand and second hand experience of them leading me to conclude they have almost no redeeming qualities. Yet we're hardwired to chase them. It's not the dating scene that's frustrating me - it is this paradox.

Ah ok. Well tbh I can see your point, and MN has been instrumental in making me see it, although it's hard to square with being happily married and having a son.The state of the dating scene (from what I can gather) is surely largely due to the nature of men though, which is responsible for the paradox.

It took me until an embarrassingly advanced age to really see all of this, but once you see it you can't unsee it. I guess that although we can choose the 'good guys', there are elements of having grown up in a patriarchal society that mean that pretty much no men can really see it all from a woman’s point of view.

🤣

I am a feminist. Some men dont like that, infact every man ive met. They show their true colours and entitlement. I was OLD , im not now.
So many men wanting to be mothered and looked after whilst doing less than bare minimum. Packed it up.
Im on my own...love my own company...theres reason why most men are single at this age.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft the men I've had relationships with all started out great. Ticked every box. At first! Maybe I missed signs, but the process of learning what they are and how to avoid them is a long one (decades, maybe even a whole lifetime!) and I'm tired of trying and failing.

@Microdisney has a point though that I am looking for an individual and focussing on group characteristics isn't probably helpful. I probably have become unnecessarily anti-men, jaded and pessimistic.

I just wonder how to change my mindset. Or if I need to abandon romantic relationships and just get a pet. And a robot hoover.

There's overwhelming evidence that you are exactly right! And yet we still seem to be continually lulled into ignoring the blindingly obvious and taking up with men over and over again. And to be fair there are some things that only a real live cleaner can do which a robot hoover just can't manage. 😜

Yes, I know what you mean. Experience helps you to not fall for the same issues repeatedly, but it can't protect you from coming up against new ones. You can be very vigilant in not ending up with an alcoholic again only to find your teetotaller has remortgaged the house and put it on the horses. Almost impossible to stay one step ahead when the potential issues are as multiple as they are unexpected.

@5128gap I actually thought about a set of 'interview' questions and started jotting them in my phone - eg What are your main values? Do you have any addictions? Do you watch porn, what kind? What do you think of Andrew Tate? etc - until I caught myself on. The idea that I am so desirable that I would have multiple applicants of a high enough standard to need sifting is pretty farcical and even if I did, who would be willing to be subjected to an interrogation and tell the truth?! So it's back to the old 'reading between the lines and going with one's instincts'. Or focussing on building a contented solo life.