Are men like cleaners?

[Superlambaanana]

And obviously the answer is ‘no absolutely not, they’re bone idle around the house’. But hear me out…

I’m single in my 50s after a lifetime of failed romantic relationships with men. Two major, longterm ones, one of which was emotionally abusive and has scarred me greatly. I feel like I have wasted so much time on men to the detriment of living my own life. Yet I still have this hankering to be in a relationship. I have a full life but I come home to an empty house and I hate being the singleton at events with my married friends.

It occurs to me that it’s a bit like wanting to get a cleaner.

It’s ideologically uncomfortable. In theory, Im against it on socialist/ feminist grounds.

But in practice, it’s widely accepted to be the norm. And going with the societal flow usually makes life a lot easier.

But even if I could get over it contradicting with my values, I still can’t get past the knowledge that ultimately I’m going to end up with someone who made me happy at first, but will inevitably make me miserable and I’ll be stuck with them because getting out of arrangements like these is always difficult, painfully slow and reputationally damaging.

So do I just keep going it alone or do I need to reframe the requirement?

I feel like I know exactly what you mean. I neither want nor need a cleaner or a man in my life but often feel as though I should.

I say screw what society says, my apartment is perfectly clean and the thought of a man in my life fills me with fear and a big shudder.

I have gone for the pets solution - three cats.

I think there are decent men out there but after the breakup of a 23 year marriage due to ExH basically having a mid life crisis I just am happy being peaceful on my own.

I get my company from my family and my friends.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/13/feminists-do-not-hate-men
There would be no misandry if it wasnt for misogyny

Love it! Hooray for you and all the @Octavia64 's who've replied to this thread confirming there is life without men. Quite a lot of women enjoying the company of pets too which is lovely to hear!

Are men like cleaners?

By that do you mean do you actually need one. Nope you don't just as men don't need women. It's only an issue if you don't have a partner but really feel you should have one. If you're content with your life I wouldn't worry about it. The single friends we have (male & female) are quite happy living on their own. No need to be lonely, meet up for meals, days out, holidays etc.

@5128gap I wish I knew you IRL. I've loved all your posts here. You've articulately set out points that I wanted to make but couldn't quite get properly formed and your responses nailed! I don't suppose you are a single lesbian, living up the road from me and willing to date a less intelligent, un-evolved, formerly straight woman?! Much love to you! 😍🤣😋

I agree ..i love @5128gap posts.. agree with them all.
Btw OP intelligence is subjective, youre fine as you are x

Sorry love, can't help you. IRL I'm a three times married welder named Brian from Wolverhampton.😁
Seriously, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed your thread. Your analogy had me gripped from the start. I'm sure we'd be great friends.😊

@5128gap 🤣🤣🤣

@Loubelle70 ❤️❤️❤️

You're in your 50s with your own home. Can you not just have a relationship on your terms? eg don't go for men who dont want what you want, and who dont fit with your idea of what could work. That way, you won't waste time.

I won't tolerate sexism, misogyny, violence, lazy and unkempt, can't cook, hoarders, cheaters, grumpy. Didn't want a man with DCs aged under 18 either. Life eventually teaches you to have your boundaries and not be afraid to stick to them if you want a chance at happiness, I've found. Took me long enough to realise that..

Aside from that, men tell you what you want to hear, and are on their best behaviour at 1st. But if they change for the worst and you then can't stand their ways, the thing is not to hang around just for the sake of having a man. Just end the relationship rather than bring angst into your later years.

I met DP when I was 54, 7 years ago. We have a good relationship. We dont live together, he's 15 minutes down the road in his own house. I'm in mine. We're both people who like our own space at times. Im not interested in living with a man. We socialise and holiday together, get on well with each other's (adult) DCs, see each other 3/4 times a week or so. It's fine. This type of companionship suits us both. You'll find what suits you.

If we finished I wouldn't date again however, at my age this is it for me. Pact with friends, if we end up alone we're off to a (non-boring) retirement village together

I have my own home, a good job, savings, I'm healthy, slim, attractive, self sufficient, mentally stable, etc etc. And I am able to find a romantic partner who I can sustain a long term relationship with. I've achieved this several times already.

But they all eventually changed in some way that meant we had to break up (rather than I wanted to break up). They became lazy or went off me sexually (or rather they went 'onto someone else'). The last one started voicing breathtakingly sexist and bigoted views (spurred on to become more and more open about these views by SM and Lee Anderson types in the public eye) and also became emotionally abusive. He would get angry if I was out 'for too long' or doing something that wasn't directly related to his needs.

And yet I didn't leave for years after this started. In fact we broke up several times and I even instigated reconciliations!

I was afraid of being alone. And now I'm alone, I am learning to be happy on my own. I AM happy on my own! I can pay for brawn if I need it, to do the garden or odd jobs.

But I still have a niggle in the back of my head that being alone means I might just be missing out on everything life has to offer.

I'm glad to hear many posters have found a relationship which works. You all prove it's possible!

I have a full social life, work FT and volunteer with two charities. I'm busy and yet I still spend a lot of evenings alone and have no one I can sit in silence with, or chat about minuate with or share my most intimate thoughts with. Which is fine at the moment, but I don't relish it for my retirement and I don't like the idea of living to be old without companionship.

Maybe I'll just move into a retirement village or a commune. Maybe learning to be happy alone will allow me to enter into a relationship and feel confident I could exit more swiftly if it turns sour. Though I am also tired of trying and failing.

Despite the what some have said, I do have the wherewithal to acknowledge I may be part of the problem (not in relation to the emotional abuse though - that was entirely down to him) and of course I don't hate all men, everywhere.

You've had long term relationships with two men. Out of 4 billion. There are huge numbers of women (and men) in happy, fulfilling, equal relationships on this planet, proof that there are decent people out there and man-woman relationships can work. Not for everyone, but for many people. If you're not one of those people then fine, but that's on you, not everyone of the opposite gender.

Giving up would be a bit like never eating out again after going to a couple of bad restaurants. Life is an journey not a destination - failed relationships weren't a waste of time, but a learning experience. What you've learned from them can help you have better ones in the future. But you absolutely shouldn't be looking for a man just so you don't come home to an empty house or have a partner to socialise with. Those are a bonus of a successful relationship, not an objective.

Fair enough, if you can't handle a relationship ending or don't have the strength to end a faulty one, then you probably should stay single for those reasons alone.

@altmember so what is the objective in your opinion?

Given married women statistically live shorter lives than single women I think it's not really as straightforward as saying "there's loads of women in great relationships". I mean there are, I'm quite happy myself, but statistically being married to men is shortening our lives.

As for your victim blaming of a woman who has been in an abusive relationship in your last paragraph 😲

Just because I do not agree with your sentence, does not mean I have a problem with comprehension. Do you think people who don't agree with you must not understand what you are saying (stifled laughter)?

I do hope OP takes a proper stance against men by, for example, not using any transportation where a man is at the controls, getting in any sort of male labourer/repairman, not using any appliance that was invented by a man, going into any buildings which were constructed by men (that'd be a major ick, right?!) ... You know, you should really stand for your beliefs and not be hypocritical! Oh wait, or is it as I said, completely nonsensical to hate ALL men for the crimes of a few bad men? Andddd Goodnight.

Its not your disagreement that made me suspect you had insufficient intellect to understand me. It was your inability to offer a compelling argument in support of your own position and your poor emotional control that led you to resort to displays of anger and name calling in place of debate.

@WildBear I think you're being deliberately provocative and troll-y. I don't understand why. Are you annoyed that I have questioned relationships with men? Are you a man or feeling men need defending? I haven't said I hate all men. I struggle with liking men as a class, but I'm not saying I can't bear to be near them or that I'm incapable of having loving, committed relationships with them.

Interesting and thought provoking thread.

I have a full life but I come home to an empty house and I hate being the singleton at events with my married friends.

But in practice, it’s widely accepted to be the norm. And going with the societal flow usually makes life a lot easier.

These are very strange and unusual reasons for seeking a romantic partner. The reason to seek a partner is if you want company and intimacy, with the added bonus of having someone to support you both financially and emotionally.

Initiating relationships because you don't want people to see that you are single at events, and because you think it's what society wants you to do, sounds like insecurity. A bit like the insecure man who rushes out to buy an overpriced car because people in his social network also have overpriced cars. The overpriced car does not benefit him in any way, but he feels that he needs one because of "society."

It may be best to self-examine these insecurities regarding "societal flow." Such insecurities are somewhat normal in 20 year old men, but I would have thought a woman in her 50s would have moved past these feelings.

That's an interesting interpretation of the OPs words

You say:

The reason to seek a partner is if you want company and intimacy, with the added bonus of having someone to support you both financially and emotionally.

And the OP says:

I have a full life but I come home to an empty house and I hate being the singleton at events with my married friends.

For me those are fundamentally the same things. She comes home to an empty house (wants company and intimacy) and hates being a single person at events with couples (wants company and perhaps emotional support)

Now perhaps she is insecure for not wanting to go with the societal flow, but I find as someone who parents their nephew but doesn't have children of their own, that going outside of the societal flow is exhausting, due to the pressures and judgements society makes of you. It's not necessarily insecurity that makes people want to go with the flow.

@dimllaishebiaith yes you've nailed it. I'm far from insecure and I certainly don't need someone to 'support me', especially financially! Personally I find the idea of 'needing' a man very old fashioned. I am grappling with whether I 'want' a man as a romantic partner for the companionship, intimacy and social company that couples enjoy. But whether the negatives (for a woman in a relationship with a man) outweigh the positives.

The notion that we're insecure or un-evolved if we go along with social norms is ludicrous and shows the naïveté of the pp. Humans are hardwired to conform and for good reason - social isolation is a proven killer. I'm not suggesting I'm socially isolated, far from it, but I challenge anyone to tell me that they don't conform to at least some societal norms which in reality have have some negative consequences for the individual.

The notion that we're insecure or un-evolved if we go along with social norms is ludicrous and shows the naïveté of the pp. Humans are hardwired to conform and for good reason - social isolation is a proven killer.

I went along with social norms when I was very young and very anxious about what people thought of me. I grew past that in my early 20s. My social network has been extremely small for many years, and most of my time is spent by myself. For the most part, I do not care what other people think of me or the fact I am single.

As you said, societal norms can have negative consequences for an individual. That's why moving past societal norms is an important aspect of maturity. It's important that we continuously examine our own thoughts and actions, and ask ourselves, when we behave a certain way, is it because we think it's the right thing to do, or because we want to do it? Or do we do it just because of what other people think of us?

But whether the negatives (for a woman in a relationship with a man) outweigh the positives.

The majority of men are decent people, so why have so many relationships been negative? What are the qualities and attributes you seek in men that caused you to approach those men in the first place?

@shuggles it's more complicated than 'you're immature if you only do what others expect'. Social norms go far beyond just overt 'keeping up with the Joneses' type behaviour which I agree can often be driven by immaturity.

Having a small social circle and believing that you only do things because you want to do them doesn't mean you have moved past societal norms or are more liberated than your lessor neighbours. You will find you 'want' to do some things because they make your life more aligned to social norms. From wearing certain clothes and being polite to others, to not shoplifting. And to really bake your noodle, eschewing social norms is also a social norm in itself (especially when you wear it as an identity).

This isn't about me overly caring about what people think of me. It's about living harmoniously within a local community and society in general.

And re the 'men are decent, ergo you must be the defective one' comment - seriously?! My exes were all 'decent'. Many were and are pillars of the community, in senior jobs, with community involvement on the side and widely respected. I didn't enter long term relationships with them lightly. They were all wonderful partners for years before something happened to cause the decline of the relationship. Had you questioned what that might have been, I'd happily concede that is something worth exploring. But people don't always show exactly what they are and will always be in the period in which a relationship is formed. Some people change later and no amount of 'looking for signs' would have alerted the other person to that. Otherwise no one would ever take up with someone who later inflicts DV.

You will find you 'want' to do some things because they make your life more aligned to social norms. From wearing certain clothes and being polite to others, to not shoplifting.

Most of my clothes are scruffy. I wear them purely because they are soft and comfortable.

I am polite to others because I would want them to treat me the same way, not because it's an arbitrary "social norm."

I don't shoplift because I would not want people to steal from me either, not because it's a "social norm."

And to really bake your noodle, eschewing social norms is also a social norm in itself (especially when you wear it as an identity).

I don't.

And re the 'men are decent, ergo you must be the defective one'

I didn't say you were defective, but I suspect there might be negative qualities that are common to destructive and violent men that you may be inadvertently drawn to.

This is not the first thread where you have decided to tell women who have been in abusive relationships that it must be because they are attracted to "bad boys"

Whilst simultaneously talking about how women aren't attracted to you and that's why you don't get much sex

And from a previous post of yours I read I was pretty sure you were indicating you were a man

I won't comment more, this is all I can remember with my photographic memory for usernames and posts, but I do feel it's incredibly relevant to how you are trying to victim blame the OP for having been abused.