Are men like cleaners?

[Superlambaanana]

And obviously the answer is ‘no absolutely not, they’re bone idle around the house’. But hear me out…

I’m single in my 50s after a lifetime of failed romantic relationships with men. Two major, longterm ones, one of which was emotionally abusive and has scarred me greatly. I feel like I have wasted so much time on men to the detriment of living my own life. Yet I still have this hankering to be in a relationship. I have a full life but I come home to an empty house and I hate being the singleton at events with my married friends.

It occurs to me that it’s a bit like wanting to get a cleaner.

It’s ideologically uncomfortable. In theory, Im against it on socialist/ feminist grounds.

But in practice, it’s widely accepted to be the norm. And going with the societal flow usually makes life a lot easier.

But even if I could get over it contradicting with my values, I still can’t get past the knowledge that ultimately I’m going to end up with someone who made me happy at first, but will inevitably make me miserable and I’ll be stuck with them because getting out of arrangements like these is always difficult, painfully slow and reputationally damaging.

So do I just keep going it alone or do I need to reframe the requirement?

How very 4chan of you.

Is this a woman's view of men or a man's view of women. They'd be interchangeable in this view.

I dream of a place like this! A female only commune with separate houses round a shared courtyard and with some communal space. But, as can be seen from this thread alone, women can also be nasty and confrontational. I believe people have tried living together in retirement and it's very tricky with the need for a lot of rules and restrictions to make it work in practice.

If you can't comprehend my last sentence, it isn't me that's the fool. So, here we go again... if you think no decent man would consider the OP, then you know so little about truly decent men, you have clearly never met one. (You don't need to agree obviously but I hope the more simple phrasing has enabled you at least to understand the words..?)

@Loubelle70
"Absolutely...the ole 'look at yourself' brigade again.
Men have been entitled to everything forever... when women start saying, hang on this is shit for me, the men and some women start the 'if you smell shit wherever you go check your shoe'...its not true."

Totally agree. It seems to be a universal truth that any MN thread discussing DV, emotional abuse, difficult relationships or just issues with men that goes on long enough, eventually there will be people along who are determined to blame the women.

I don't really understand why these people even feel the need to post. It's like going to a football match and deliberately standing in the opposing side's terrace with your own team's strip on. There's never any actual rational argument as to why ops might be wrong (beyond namalt and 'my nigel' etc). It's just 'you are vile op, no wonder you don't have a man' 'men are better off without your sort' etc. It makes me depressed about women tbh when you realise how many are misogynists and who get a kick out of posting nasty comments on a board which is fundamentally about debate and sharing viewpoints and experiences (namalt and nasty comments are not viewpoints - I mean viewpoints in the sense of decently articulated arguments).

If you're against men in the way that incels are against women i.e. you haven't had your needs met by the ones you've met so you're against ALL of them, then I suggest you have nothing to offer one and I mean that pragmatically and not in a snippy way.

You don't need one, you don't like them. Leave them alone and accept the empty house as a badge of your dedication to your beliefs.

Its interesting the panic it seems to cause when a woman expresses the view she sees no value in a relationship with a man. I've seen similar threads and it's like a klaxon sounds in basements all over the land and out come all the men to tell its her fault (and they wouldn't want her anyway so there!) hot on the heels of women taking it as a personal criticism of their own choices and trying to persuade her back into line. I showed the thread to a man yesterday who's response was 'she has a point. I'd not want to be in a relationship with a man either' yet this cohort continue to argue that if a woman feels this way then she's malfunctioning in some way.

To me, this is a case of choose your difficult.
You are finding being single difficult in some ways, but then you are finding, or have found, being in a relationship difficult.

So whatever path you choose there will be some difficulties. I don't mean you should put up with abuse or anything like that (obv!) but in any relationship there will be issues and problems to work though as none of us are perfect and this is inevitable when you are with someone for a lot of time. Even kind and decent people are sometimes inconsiderate and selfish on occasion even if they don't mean to be as that is the nature of being human.

Trusting someone and bringing them into your life is always a risk. Yes, you can minimise the risk by observing their behaviour, how they treat people, noting red flags early etc but ultimately there is no cast iron guarantee they wont let you down at some point in the future.

Therefore, you have to weigh up the difficulties/risks of both and make a decision based on that. Many men are indeed utter shit bags but I don't think it's helpful to generalise them all into one homogenous lump as that kind of thinking wont really answer anything for you as its too generalised and nebulous.

If I were you I'd stay single for a good while and just see how it makes you feel. You might find you love it after a decent amount of time or you might find its not satisfying you- both are ok. You don't have to make a decision right now. Let it settle and see what happens. Sometimes life surprises us and that can often be where we find the most happiness.

She's against men because she has been abused by them. So clearly far from having nothing to offer, she has plenty to offer, and has been taken advantage of. The OP is the opposite to an incel. Incels (clue in the name!) do want women but have so little to offer they lose out to superior men. They hate women because they cant get one. The OP can get a man, she just doesnt want one because she hates how they have treated her.

I find it sad how many men are on the relationship board who just come here not to observe or learn but to criticise and gaslight.

Mumsnet is famously primarily a women's space, women wanting to talk to other women without the bullying and domination of men.

I don't mind men who have something to contribute, but the ones who blame women for the lack of progress that some/most men from particular generations have made isn't a helpful contribution.

We all know single women without children are the happiest group, what we would like is married/partnered women with or without children to become equally as happy. The problem is not women. We know that, we don't need to be told it's our fault, anyone with 2 brain cells to scratch wouldn't bother trying to convince us it's women. The genie is out of the bottle and men will need to get their heads around this and adapt.

We’ll agree to disagree as OP clearly stated she was against the idea of men as a whole. The ones she can get, the ones she can’t get etc etc they’re just one group at this point to OP. With that in mind she does indeed have nothing to offer a non abusive one as she will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop so to speak.

She may have nothing she wishes to offer. But there's an important distinction between that and having nothing available to offer. I have nothing I'm prepared to offer the creepy guy who chats me up when I'm buying my bread in the morning, but I dare say I have plenty he'd like to be offered.

Talking about stating the obvious to labour the point 🙈

I was thinking this lol

And yet here I am earnestly OLD, hoping to meet one who proves this theory wrong 🤣😍🤣

Its a point worth making when people are responding to a woman who doesn't want a man with this silly playground tit for tat 'well no man would want you anyway...' which is just a lazy way to put her down personally, rather than engage with the points she's making or respond to the question she invited us to discuss.

That's exactly what I thought!

Literally not what I said.

but do you want to labour it further?

why are you taking the man’s point of view on this. To offer is to be in a position of availability or surplus. This woman is the one in the position of power here and as such, because of her feelings towards all men in general, she has nothing to offer to a man. She’s made the clear. Which bit don’t you get

I responded to a post that had likened the OP to an incel, giving my reasons why I disagreed. You chose to quote me telling me you disagreed with my disagreement! Our subsequent exchange where we debated the semantics of the difference in meaning between having nothing to offer (used by some posters to put the OP down as undesirable) and nothing one is prepared to offer followed. I've told you why I felt the distinction was important. I agree OP holds the power. How in the wide world could you conclude I'm 'taking the man's view'?

@Woodenwonder what do you suggest I should offer a man? Genuine question. Trust that he won't turn nasty after a few years when he grows tired of a committed relationship? Ive tried that and had my faith battered time and again. My fundamental point here is that it seems to be inevitable that relationships sour eventually because men stop trying, with women either opting to put up with shitty behaviour to preserve the relationship or having to leave (which is hard to do).

@5128gap I appreciate your articulate and interesting posts. Thanks.

I'm struggling to follow this 'what I have to offer' exchange. And whether @Woodenwonder and others are saying I should 'offer' something specific (what?) or if it's actually about me expecting something from a partner (consistency, decency, respect etc in return for same from me, instead of huge effort at first and complacency after a couple of years), and that being unreasonable in and of itself.

Is it "men" or partners? Cos some long term same sex relationships I've seen also have one taking the other for granted, becoming abusive, lazy, cheating etc. Not a male preserve.

Anyhow in answer to are men like cleaners... yep, it's hard to find a good one, but when you do life is so much easier. (To give my personal, differing viewpoint. I got lucky)

Ignoring the baffling "cleaner" analogy....

It sounds like you'd be better off single but have somehow got in your head that makes you inadequate in some way?

There's the odd weirdo who might judge you but at 48, I've recently sensed a big change in attitude, if that's a factor for you.

you seem to be overthinking and seeing it very academically but I'd look at the practicalities. If you fundamentally don't want to, then don't.

I don't think it's exactly a 4chan position to say that someone who describes themselves as being "against men on ideological grounds. I believe they are almost exclusively bad news - for women, for humanity, for the planet. I am anti men after years of first hand and second hand experience of them leading me to conclude they have almost no redeeming qualities." Would be doing them a favour by not entering a relationship with someone they fundamentally hate.

It's not mandatory to be in one, it doesn't seem like you get anything out of it and I don't think anyone should enter a relationship on those terms.

If some man was on here pontificating about how shit women are (and using a transactional economic analogy to explain why despite fucking hating them he might deign to entertain one for convenience) my advice would be the same, women are probably alright without someone like that in their life and you'd be doing them a favour by leaving them the fuck alone

A dog will love you more than any man including your dad

You're making the classic error there of thinking you can just flip the sexes, and everything stays the same. Men and women are different. Different motivations and attitudes, different power relations and risk factors. If a man was on here saying he hated women but wanted one for sex, most women would avoid him from fear he would harm them. If the OP made it known she had no use for men other for sex, she'd probably have a queue round the block. When women hate men, men get a bit offended and call them names. When men hate women, women get hurt.