DD wants to cut ties-Says her childhood was toxic

[SadandStressed3]

This is long, so my apologies.
I’m in a horrible, stressful situation with my 19yr old daughter. Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room. I’m just going to give a brief overview so as not to drip feed.

She is the eldest of 3 with a 5yr gap and essentially says she feels like we ruined her life by having the younger two. Apparently this meant no time for her and less holidays. She said she had to listen to us saying we couldn’t do stuff because of money but yet we chose to have the younger kids. She said it was toxic due to arguments and stress. There was an awful 2yrs after the youngest was born where I had hideous PND but still had to try and cope as we have zero extended family and DH was working away through the week. There’s 18mths between the younger 2 so DD would have been 7-9yrs during this time.
When she was Y5 we put her in for grammar entrance (she’s exceptionally able academically) She passed and went to an all girls grammar. She hated it and we let her move to the comprehensive for Y8. She hated that too but still came out with 4 top A’levels.
There has been lots of teen drama and she was under CAMHS for a year. This was counselling and I was called in for the last 10mins of each session to be told how awful I always made her feel. How she was belittled and unloved and how the younger two were treated more favourably and how I gaslit her. She complains that the younger two have more relaxed rules on bedtime and internet use (probably marginally true but not by a significant amount) She’s also very angry that family holidays can now be more teen focused whereas when she was their age, we had to accommodate younger kids. To me this is all just what happens when you’re the eldest. Every year, I’ve made sure her and I had a weekend away just us. I’ve also taken her shopping for clothes and when she was 14, we completely redid her bedroom allowing her to choose and putting in a make up desk etc. If anything, she’s probably been over indulged a little.

It breaks my heart that she refuses all contact when away and lives by this narrative of having had a toxic childhood. I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things. Half of me wants to support her and acknowledge, as I have tried to, that there was a very difficult period when her siblings were young and the other half wants to tell her to stop wallowing in self indulgent MC bullshit. Obviously the latter isn’t ideal and I do push that away. As things stand, she’ll finish next year and we’ll never hear from her again and I’m desperate to sort this out beforehand. Well done if you’ve got this far. Any advice is very welcome.

Bless you OP I think you sound like a lovely mum who has done their best . I too have been blamed for certain things by my youngest daughter , but when you re bringing up a family and in the thick of it you do what you think is the right thing at that time . I would let her go NC if thats what she wants , she knows where you are if she needs you x

I think abuse is too strong a word tbh. Insulting to those of us that have actually been abused.

All actions/behaviours are doing something, whether it’s attention, help, extra support etc. Many in this generation are immature. Their development is often delayed.
dd is still a student and to cut her off or throw her out is really extreme and likely to end in utter disaster. She will fail her degree, end up homeless and have a reason then to feel reasonably and justifiably damaged by op.

Working it through is surely preferred at this point. Helping her dd to understand her mother’s feelings as well as her own.

I think you sound like a great parent OP and I don't think she's being a brat. I suspect her thinking is very black and white and she notices and remembers small details - 'in 2012 you spent 10p more on the youngest sibling then you did on me' type things. I think the obsession with 'fair' is very much an ASD thing even if she can never get a diagnosis because CAHMS are shit.

Most people on here have no idea what having a child/teen/young adult with ASD is like. Going to uni and not contacting their parents unless they need something is far from unusual! In fact i'd guess it's probably the norm. There's a facebook group called Parents of Autistic / Neurodiverse UK Students that might be helpful. She has obviously struggled with fitting in at school and may well be trying to figure out what's to blame - and has somehow landed up on you, maybe even from counselling!

I'd parent her as if she had a diagnosis, tell her you love her, keep in contact with her with no pressure for her to reply. Explain to her how you see things but that you understand she sees it differently - you might find that things you thought were obvious really weren't obvious to her. She might really struggle to be aware of other people's views and understanding of situations and need them explained to her because she can't put herself in someone else's shoes or see things how they see them. Be gentle but firm that hers isn't the only view of things.

Emotionally she may also be a few years behind her peers. She may also actually need a lot of support and be struggling much more than she lets on at uni, so be aware that things may fall apart for her at some point. I'd also watch out for a lot of drinking as that can be a good way of coping with her social issues - unless she's gone the other way and is teetotal.

You're doing a great job OP, just keep supporting her and trying to understand what's going on for her. She's lucky to have such a great mum.

"I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things"

This stood out for me OP. You are not listening to her. Whatever has happened she is deeply upset. You need to stop being so defensive and listen to her.

My parents didn't listen to me ever. I put up with it for years before I gave up entirely. We are no contact now.

Use SET - Support, Empathy, Truth. Support as you are doing, Empathy - I am sorry you found it difficult at times, we did our best but can see that sometimes that was not what you wanted or felt you needed. Truth - in families, you dont always get exactly what you want and older children can find it hard to have younger siblings but that does not mean it is wrong for parents to have more than once child. I would also tell her the door is always open to her in future, and that very much hope she will be part of the family going forward.

@Fizzadora - the daughter on the other thread is not saying her childhood was toxic, she has a good relationship with her mother but is expressing the view that some of what happened was difficult for her, and that mother got defensive and angry with her.

I'm really sorry you've had such a battering on mumsnet today, OP. I wasn't sure what to think with your first post but I've read all your posts and I'm inclined to believe that your daughter is, for whatever reason, making mountains out of molehills. I'm not at all sure what to advise, other than to echo the idea that she does sound likely to be ASD to me. But I would like to offer some perspective on Mumsnet - it can be a particularly harsh place to be an OP, and it seems people have ganged up on you. I'm sorry.

Just wanted to say that I think this is a fabulous post.

What an utterly dreadful post to read. Your poor wee daughter.

Your daughter sadly seems to have had an emotionally neglectful childhood as did I. Luckily she is clever enough at a young age to work out she feels better about herself away from her family. I did not manage that part and struggling every single day to get through it, I’m 50 and you would not want your daughter to ever have my MH problems.

Some of the problems will be that neither of her parents were there at times when she needed you, her father has no relationship with her whatsoever, her other parent has done the trying hard weekend away stuff when she just needed a parent, her younger siblings have been treated differently, her younger siblings don’t treat her well, she’s also the eldest so dealt the bad hand (as was I) as she’s had to endure all the terrible bits. And that’s just a snapshot she will have far worse memories and examples.

I wish her a wonderful life once she is NC with all of you. Also if she ever reads this I suggest she comes over to the stately homes thread where many of us are NC with our family members due to similar problems. I’m sure she is truly amazing despite her family and childhood.

And btw to top it all you comment on her not making or keeping friends….I’m exactly the same. As I pointed out to my LC mother who commented in just the same way I never learnt those skills as a young child as I was busy keeping myself alive and surviving my hideous childhood.

I thought Mumsnet was for support and advice. How naive I was. Poor OP, doing her best, getting grief from a teenage brat, and from mums on here who should know better. All raising perfect children.

No wonder CAHMS is full, if it’s full of privileged loved teenagers blocking it up for nonsense.

That disgruntled little popsy needs to be given an opportunity to stand on her own two feet and to come back once she realises that a stable home (with or without siblings) would be just fine for many, many truly disadvantaged children.

OK I’m sorry- I’m sure you do love her very much. I’ve had issues with similar aged daughters myself- different issues though. 19, although an adult in theory, is still so young and she is obviously trying to work through what happened in her childhood. I would try to focus less on the threats and more on what is going on for her.

As someone who grew up with a mother with mental health issues and who would spend 6 weeks at a time in a mental health hospital several times per year, I don’t think my mother ever appreciated the effect that had on me. (Only Plus point was when I was younger I was put in care which I actually enjoyed)

I do think that your PND did affect her hugely. Whilst it might have been an horrendous 2 years for you, I think at 8 years old, those 2 years represented a quarter of her life
I think it probably also affected how she saw her younger siblings, and in a way she blames them for you being ill.

I was also the eldest in the family and had a much younger sister.
I didn’t have any animosity towards dsis. I just couldn’t understand why my mother got pregnant with another child when she was struggling to look after me

It was very lonely growing up

I suspect that deep down there is some jealousy with regards to her siblings relationship with each other and your relationship with them as opposed to your relationship with your eldest.

I know you do a lot with your older dd but what is coming across is a split. You take her out on your own and you go shopping and get coffee and go to concerts but when it comes to family time and holidays etc then you and your dh put your youngest as the centres of attention.

Have your youngest ever had a holiday where they aren’t the centre of what you all do and it is more geared to older children.

Your first post was not vile @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia but it certainly wasnt supportive or helpful and based on something you had 'misunderstood' which was untrue. However, you are coming at this from your experience as a child that DID experience trauma from what I can gather from your posts. That doesn't make it so for the OP's dd. The hyperbole does not help anyone. The OP is not your mother, the dd is not you. I have, like many others here, worked with children who have experienced trauma and please listen when I say, it has never, not once, included their parents having younger children and everything associated with that. Not once. That doesn't even come close to trauma. This is of course not to say that the dd doesn't have mental health issues or is neurodivergent.
So while I understand that this may have triggered some feelings or memories, there is absolutely no need to type such vile things to a woman who is struggling. The people that do that need to think long and hard about why they feel the need to but I suspect most of them are incapable of self reflection for various reasons. It is shit that the OP is on the receiving end of it though.

She is certainly not happy! Whether this is something to do with the family, or her course , or her personal relationships the outcome is that she is hitting back at you (metaphorically I hope) because you are the nearest person she can trust because she knows full well that, just as a toddler will shout “I hate you mummy” when in a tantrum, you will always be there for her.

She is admittedly a bit old for toddler tantrums, she actually sounds quite isolated and immature, with her conviction that her siblings are the root cause of her problems. Has she not made friends of her own at University , her view of the world seems very family oriented, I would expect an intelligent young adult to have a wider, more mature outlook on life and their place in it, realising that everyone has different experiences growing up but that what is important is how we use those experiences, and deal with them to shape our own lives.

I understand why you feel the need to leave the thread. FWIW OP after reading through your replies in this thread, I think I believe you.

I feel like I felt exactly the same as your DD.
The difference however, is that my parents genuinely were abusive and neglectful.
My father was a raging alcoholic who abused my mum and I both physically and emotionally - My mum behaved in emotionally abusive ways as a way of coping with how my father was behaving and took a lot of things out on me.
I was an only child, so in this situation I had no one I could talk to or confide in about what was going on. No one who could truly understand.
School friends would see how I was treated and comment on it to me at school when I was away from mum and dad, they didn't understand why my parents were so nice and pleasant to them and seemed to treat me like absolute dogshit.
I'd self harm and hide it, in P.E there wasn't much hiding it though, so they'd see and worry for me.
School tried to get me involved with CAMHs but it never went anywhere.

Does your DD know anyone who actually has been through a not particularly nice childhood? Do/have her friends all had reasonably healthy family dynamics?

I can't help but wonder if she feels misunderstood and frustrated, but because nothing outright "bad" actually happened she doesn't really have any justification which could be frustrating her further, making her more resentful?
19 is still quite young honestly, is there any chance it could just be teenage rebelliousness - I've noticed online there's a lot of push for teens to push away their parents these days, telling teens that no one understands them and their parents aren't really there for them, don't understand them, don't want what's best for them etc, even more so than when I was a teen and 'emo' was all the rage - is there any chance this has all just been fully absorbed by her at all?

I'm not trying to minimise either, and obviously we only have your side of things, but more lax electronics time and being a bit huffy and resentful about more child orientated holidays doesn't exactly seem like a horrible childhood to me.

I don't have siblings so I have no experience of what it must be like to go from only child to suddenly having siblings, but as a child and teen myself I desperately craved siblings just so I wouldn't be so damn alone and miserable all the time - so I just.. Can't relate there at all.
But again, we don't have your DD's side of things so I may be judging too harshly.

Posting just to offer some support to the OP and other parents trying to raise children in the toxic atmosphere created by social media and a be-kind, entitled and therapy-obsessed society in which everyone is a victim.

It's shocking to see the projection and the glee with which so many posters have put the boot in. Shameful things being posted here. Some really. fucked-up responses.

No wonder so many women are rejecting motherhood and others are choosing totally child-focussed lives. Who, reading not just the OP's situation, but the vile responses to her, would have children?

@Newchapterbeckons I agree with this, there are no winners in competing for pain but for example growing up with addiction and violence in the home, feeling genuinely unsafe there and being expected to take responsibility for adult things in a way that changes your personality possibly forever is different to the idea that preferential sibling behaviour is abuse. It sounds like she is unhappy, things weren’t perfect at home and it suits the narrative to blame current unhappiness on that. I know what I am talking about here and would never long term no contact my family, there is still love there and they were trying their best. Sounds like you did also OP. I am not saying don’t try to reconcile but maybe if your DD ever has kids she will realise how difficult it can be. These one damaged person narratives annoy me a bit. Sounds like you went through quite a * time yourself and still managed to do the basic parenting. The idea that everyone is due a perfect childhood or they get to blame their parents for all their adult issues is ludicrous and entitled in my opinion. Most parenting is a struggle, a lot of issues are inherited, were your parents perfect OP?

I am so sorry this sounds so so hard. Realistically it could be many things. It could just be a misfit of parenting styles. As in you and your daughter are completely different and you parent her in a way that's not quite aline to what she needs (if that makes sense).
She could have just met people who have had very different child hoods and it's confused her and somehow it's distorted her view of her child hood?
She could also be a very complicated child (some just are).
The thing is you are where you are. Maybe see if you could have some joint councilling sessions. It may put a line under it and give you something to work with.

Where you said your daughter stated in therapy that she felt belittled and unloved makes me think maybe your daughter has a point. Not that you are 100% to blame, but Im guessing you definitely aren’t as innocent as you’re making out.

To me, your daughter is very likely to be a person with high intellectual capacity. They tend to be ver intense kids and the hurt, hurts a lot. Probably she was neglected by the school as in this country, those kids don't receive the psycological support that they need to understand why their brain works different. Probably she blames you for not understand her or helps her to fit in (both Grammar and the other secondary school).
Deffinetely worth trying therapy again before you loose her.

im so sorry you are going through this it seems to me you only ever came from a place of love you have 3 children and 2 are happy teens and 1 who seems unhappy with everything and to be honest seems to want to be over indulged and it never suited her to have siblings ,maybe write her a letter apologise for absolutely every thing and mistakes you made but you only ever came from a place of love ,there’s no course on parenting she is your first born and we learn as we go along ,it’s also time for tough love she can’t blame you for her terrible childhood and cut you off but use your home and disrupt the home when she comes home ,she either wants in or out but can’t have it both ways ,she actually sounds like prince harry ,please don’t be hard on your self you did the best you good x

I believe you are an excellent mother - don’t let your daughter’s temporary negativity and state of mind of mind convince you of anything different!

She feels like this now - she won’t always - it’s immaturity mixed in
with poor mental health!

”fancy telling your parents they ruined your life by giving you siblings - that is just not on! This generation are far too naval gazing and self indulgent”

I haven’t read all your replies - skimmed! I think you’re an awesome mother to all your children. You are seeking opinions and you are self reflective - you are accepting of her feelings!

In my honest opinion I think you’re an excellent mum.

I’m 46 - my parents and my upbringing was rather chaotic traumatic and bordered on abusive. My mum still belittles me and so does my father - although these days they dish out their strong disgust on all their children when they don’t get their way.

I was the scapegoat child of two very controlling Narcissist parents. I developed Teflon coating! Their disgust just emboldened me!

They behaved terribly and it’s only my mother who has once acknowledged
She was abusive but only because her friends pointed it out.

Despite their awful parenting - I actually do love them. They are my parents
and I was one of five - my mother was orphaned young and my father had a
12 other siblings and was never given any attention. They just repeated the cycle of abuse they suffered.

They are not wonderful parents - but I acknowledge they didn’t know
How to be parents! I care for them and as a child my sister and were
mini-parents to our younger siblings - which in itself is wrong!

From the age of 8 we were doing chores by 11 we were doing the llaundry ironing packed lunches and looking after of younger siblings! This is
absolutely not right - but it happened!

I have two children - both are neurodivergent.

I’ve tried my best to support them both - but as this snowflake generation presents both think that the other one is the favourite. There are no favourites - I’ve been equal with them both.

I’m very conscious of giving both of them my time, money and energy!

Don’t entertain her truth as the actual truth - it’s simply how she feels - given she’s not great at friendships I suspect she struggles socially and takes offence to the slightest upset. You are a mother of three and no child gets to tell their parents off for choosing to have more siblings!

My children know they are equally loved - when they decide to exhibit unreasonable behaviour - I give them space and I put boundaries in place.
it’s one thing to be upset - but it’s total manipulation to suggest you as the parent are always the problem.

What will she do as an adult in the workplace?

Give her space but if she refuses to engage in family life then -
that’s her decision. In your shoes 👠 I’ve pulled back financial
support and that’s often brought both back to their senses.

My children were both under CAHMS fir their learning and
emotional needs - it didn’t make me a bad parent!

I’m a single parent and the only PRESENT parent.
my children know there is no one else - their other parent
has some contact but provides no support.

I had boundaries - I also paid for my eldest to have a few sessions
with a psychotherapist - from the same cultural background.
This was hugely helpful in the pandemic.

I believe you are a wonderful mother. No child gets a perfect
childhood disappointment builds resilience and hearing the
WORD no is healthy - they won’t be indulged by others out in
the world.

Love your daughter listen to her feelings but don’t overindulge and
be manipulated.

I’d suggest trying to find out from her point of view ALL the challenges shes faced/is facing. Have that as your only goal in the first instance. Don’t make it a mission to account for what is right/wrong. Just a mission to account for her perspective. And only when you’ve got that, take the next step - asking her what she needs. And only then come back with what you can offer.

doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room.

Ha, she needs to be told she's either a part of the family or not. If she doesn't want a relationship then she wants nothing from her parents.