DD wants to cut ties-Says her childhood was toxic

[SadandStressed3]

This is long, so my apologies.
I’m in a horrible, stressful situation with my 19yr old daughter. Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room. I’m just going to give a brief overview so as not to drip feed.

She is the eldest of 3 with a 5yr gap and essentially says she feels like we ruined her life by having the younger two. Apparently this meant no time for her and less holidays. She said she had to listen to us saying we couldn’t do stuff because of money but yet we chose to have the younger kids. She said it was toxic due to arguments and stress. There was an awful 2yrs after the youngest was born where I had hideous PND but still had to try and cope as we have zero extended family and DH was working away through the week. There’s 18mths between the younger 2 so DD would have been 7-9yrs during this time.
When she was Y5 we put her in for grammar entrance (she’s exceptionally able academically) She passed and went to an all girls grammar. She hated it and we let her move to the comprehensive for Y8. She hated that too but still came out with 4 top A’levels.
There has been lots of teen drama and she was under CAMHS for a year. This was counselling and I was called in for the last 10mins of each session to be told how awful I always made her feel. How she was belittled and unloved and how the younger two were treated more favourably and how I gaslit her. She complains that the younger two have more relaxed rules on bedtime and internet use (probably marginally true but not by a significant amount) She’s also very angry that family holidays can now be more teen focused whereas when she was their age, we had to accommodate younger kids. To me this is all just what happens when you’re the eldest. Every year, I’ve made sure her and I had a weekend away just us. I’ve also taken her shopping for clothes and when she was 14, we completely redid her bedroom allowing her to choose and putting in a make up desk etc. If anything, she’s probably been over indulged a little.

It breaks my heart that she refuses all contact when away and lives by this narrative of having had a toxic childhood. I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things. Half of me wants to support her and acknowledge, as I have tried to, that there was a very difficult period when her siblings were young and the other half wants to tell her to stop wallowing in self indulgent MC bullshit. Obviously the latter isn’t ideal and I do push that away. As things stand, she’ll finish next year and we’ll never hear from her again and I’m desperate to sort this out beforehand. Well done if you’ve got this far. Any advice is very welcome.

I also think the fact that this issue of “fairness” and “things being equal” is a problem in her other relationships clearly shows this is not an issue specific to you/the family. It’s an issue she has. It’s internal.

Also, that she doesn’t engage in these conversations with her dad - who would surely be as much to blame as you - says a lot. You mentioned in a previous response that he doesn’t rise to these baits into conversation. I wonder if you could adopt a sort of grey rock method to her. Feeding into it isn’t getting anywhere.

”I’m really sorry you are hurt by this. I have apologised and cannot change anything about that. I love you and I’d like to move forwards towards a more positive relationship” and repeat.

For what it’s worth I think you sound like a lovely mum who like us all has done her best. You cannot erase her siblings. Nor can you go back in time and let her stay up until 7pm at age 6 like you did her siblings. It’s such small details to be so consumers by. It isn’t normal. And I don’t mean that as a dismissive comment to her feelings but she really is so focused on the small things - not even the bigger issue like you PND.

And to all the people saying you having PND did create a toxic environment for your children. No. You were ill.

You actually sound very caring op, for some reason people are twisting your words and giving you one hell of a hard time. It may be that she’s asd, they sometimes have a very black and white way of thinking and that causes them to really feel aggrieved if they deem something to be unfair. I had to explain over and over to my daughter that how I treated them was age appropriate, her (older) brother was allowed to stay up later and it would make her so angry. She’d complain that I favoured him.
I don’t know what the answer is for you, maybe leave her go and keep the door open?

You have mentioned a few times that you are happy to listen to her without dismissing her, but have said that she then just talks about fairness and bedtimes.

If you are expecting her to be able to talk about her emotions you may be expecting too much.

She may be Alexithymic and have trouble recognising and understanding her emotions.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

It's common in people diagnosed with depression (which she says she had) and with autism.

So when she expresses that she doesn't feel it is fair her siblings go to bed half an hour later than she did at that age, she may be expressing jealousy but not necessarily know that that is what it is or have other words to express it.

She clearly felt scared, at 7, when happy mummy became sad mummy and as it coincided with the siblings, they have the blame. It's unfortunate she lacks the empathy to understand you were struggling, hopefully that will come with age. This is where my sympathy for her ends however, as she is clearly causing more misery to you and her siblings than was ever done to her.

Does she have any older sibling perks, like the biggest bedroom, a better phone etc.

She can't have unfairness both ways - when it's compared by age and when it's compared now, that's a sign she's immature and lacks critical thinking. For example, it was "unfair" that at 7 she got less than 33% or the attention but it's "totally fair" that aged 1-5 she had 100%, something neither sibling got.

You could tell her that the youngest is complaining he never got mummy to himself for 5years like she did, see if it can highlight how stupid and self absorbed she's being.

I do think those that are talking about ASD may be on to something, She seems to have worked out using some kind of calculation that she was neglected, rather than seeing siblings or different ages with different needs as a normal part of life.

But, to some extent, I also do see this as a power play. She knows she can get your attention by threatening to go no contact, and can also enjoy a free hotel with no need for any of the normal social obligations of sharing a house.

I would tell her that much as you love her, she has a simple choice, join in with family life or find other accommodation. But she doesn’t have the option of being in your house upsetting you and one of her siblings.

Ultimately, she will respect and like you more for having boundaries than being a total pushover.

Wait til she is a less than perfect parent.

Shes a brat.

OP, does it upset you to read people name calling your DD over and over?

OP when looking into autism and girls also consider about how this information reflects your own behaviour.

I’m conscious that not everyone who is autistic finds there’s differences disabling but my mum is autistic and her rigid thinking led to her behaving in a way that felt abusive to myself and my siblings. Her fixed thinking means she unable to see things from my point of view and apologise for how she made me feel. We’ve been no contact for years.

This!

I think a firm boundary has to be set. The door is always open and you will always love her but she doesn’t get to live in the house and make the people around her feel like shit.

And she is making you feel like shit. You’re a person too and I don’t see any shame in you telling her that it makes you feel awful that she feels this way but won’t engage in anything that will make it better. It’s like someone moaning that they have a headache for weeks on end but refusing to take a paracetamol or see a doctor. Well is the headache that bad then?

You’ve given her so many options and she’s refusing all of them because for some reason - and it needs exploring - she’s “getting” something out of being a victim/hard done by.

Most people if encouraged to do so could reexamine their upbringing and find problems. Some had genuinely awful and abusive backgrounds. Most have parents who were adequate and did their best Most of the time. Even if you were only adequate then the toxic childhood narrative is indulgent and also pointless. Often therapy encourages people to revisit their childhood and analyse it from an adult rather critical perspective. I am not sure how helpful this is. I would tell her that you are sorry she feels unhappy but you did the best you could. It is entirely up to her how often she comes home but that she is ways welcome and lived. Then leave it. She needs to figure this out herself.

It’s clear she has relationship issues with lots of people - siblings, her dad, had to move schools yr 7 due to friendship issues, dramatic falling out with friends and teachers. Has she got friends now?
I’d be vocal that you love her, are supportive financially but you don’t have to march to her tune.

Honestly, the only course of action is to acknowledge her feelings, even if you don’t remember them.
my mum doesn’t remember hitting me with a wooden spoon when I was young, and all I want is for her to say ‘I am sorry I hurt you, I shouldn’t have done that’.

Make it clear you will be there for her, and be open to taking some accountability, people do not generally cut off their parents for no reason, whatever people say. There is always a reason.

Your DD has now been referred to as a brat eleven times on this thread so far. There are fourteen instances of her being called spoilt or PPs agreeing that this sounds accurate. Plus, however many variations on that theme from dozens and dozens of other PPs. Not to mention the number of people gleefully suggesting you punish her by removing any parental support entirely.

That's based on YOUR description of her. How is there any doubt about the disparaging and dismissive view you have of her?

How would you feel if a loved one's description of their opinion of you led to dozens of people slagging you off? Would you feel cared for, respected, seen, and listened to? Because I fucking wouldn't.

@Mirabai

“if you hadn’t had more kids you’d have more time and money for meee”

I'm inclined to agree. That and the 'you give the younger ones an easier time' thing is the kicker for me. The DD sounds very entitled and immature and I can't help but think she's spent her life getting her way if she acts out.

That said, the previous CAHMS involvement and the period when OP had PND make me think I'd want to be sure there wasn't anything before I got harsh with her.

It's an interesting read because OP does acknowledge prior issues and hold her hands up, plus she states DD has been indulged rather a lot over the years.

It does need dealing with, for DD's sake. The world of work is looming and it sounds like DD has a lot of growing up to do before she gets to that point.

@LiveLaughCryalot

I haven't reported any posts on this thread. If your posts are being deleted, that's because someone other than me thinks your posts are unacceptable and the mods think that they are unacceptable too. Perhaps have a think about why what you are posting is being deleted?

The only thing I've said to the OP that even comes close to "vile" is my first post, which was because I had misunderstood her opening post. Many others on the thread misunderstood the OP's opener in the same way. Had the OP's intent been what I read her opener as, my first post would have been mild as a reponse.

I'm going to leave the thread for now as I’m feeling very bruised and battered emotionally by it. Thank you to everyone for your comments, whether supportive or otherwise. It’s important for me to hear lots of different perspectives. I will continue to love her and will always keep the door open. Obviously my PND affected her-of course it did! Again, I’m sure the birth of her siblings did too and maybe I didn’t appreciate that enough.

I am also feeling much more like ASD is a strong possibility here. Someone upthread talked about her calculating things and she does that all the time in terms of time and money. That coupled with my remembering the fact that she could never lie and that she obsesses over fairness all suggest that this may be the case.

And before I get jumped on. Even if she does have ASD, this doesn’t mean her feelings are invalid but it may help me understand better why she gets so angry over things I see as normal such as the no longer going to playgrounds etc.

Thank you to all of you who defended me and offered me support. Online we can only take things at face value so thank you.

@Octavia64, sorry, just wanted to come back and thank you for your post and the book suggestion. I will definitely be reading it.

these are my thoughts. I would tell her you love her, but are giving her that space. Some of her behaviour towards her siblings is toxic and you don’t want them accusing you of allowing their sibling to ruin their childhoods. Let her wallow for a bit, I think she’s being a brat

@SadandStressed3 I’m sorry the kickers have got to you OP. I hope there’s been enough supportive advice to be helpful. And good luck navigating this tricky situation.

So you're saying that the OP is responsible for other people's unpleasant descriptions of her DD and therefore this means the op is disparaging and dismissive of her DD?

That is a fucked up point of view.

@Surfapparel yes, which is one of the reasons why I’m leaving the thread. I don’t want to be critical of posters but she’s not a brat. She’s not nasty. She’s clearly upset. I just don’t understand why and she seems unable to articulate why either.

Don't know if you will see this OP - I just wanted to express sympathy. I love my daughter more than I ever imagined possible - I'd gladly give my life for her - I am sure you feel the same or similar. I can hardly imagine therefore the heartbreak you must feel.

However, much as I love her, I hope I would never allow her to emotionally abuse me as your daughter appears to abuse you. Taking your money, living in your house, yet refusing to interact - this is financial and emotional abuse, surely?

If you tolerate and accept it you do her no favours - you teach her that selfishness and cruelty to those who love her are acceptable forms of behaviour.

Heart-breaking as it would be, I would make it clear that you are a human being with feelings as valid as hers, and that you will not be abused and exploited in this way. The impact on your younger two of her behaving like this must also be hideous! Then I think you must stop paying for her, or letting her live in your home. Make it clear that you love her and she is always welcome back when she decides to stop being abusive.

And if she shows any willingness to relent, definitely pay for some counselling if you can afford it.

I'm going to tell my boss I never liked him, that it's a toxic environment and walk out of the office for good. I'm also going to tell him I expect my full salary while I'm at home looking for a better job.

Jokes apart... your DD needs to start learning some hard life lessons.

Hi OP. I haven't read the whole thread, just your replies. I would (gently) suggest that you've treated the detractors on here the same way that you've treated your daughter; explaining your behaviour and trying to get them to understand you even as they twist your own words in order to hang you.

If you would like to understand your own thought patterns and how you can change, drop me a DM. Good luck. You don't deserve this shit.

I support you. There's a small segment of people on mumsnet who are nitpickers. Ignore them.
From what I understand your DD is upset because she no longer got all of the attention once she had siblings. Once they came along your total attention was shifted away from her. I don't think her childhood was toxic. I think she's a spoiled brat. It's not your fault, it's not your husband's fault, it's not your other children's fault.