DD wants to cut ties-Says her childhood was toxic

[SadandStressed3]

This is long, so my apologies.
I’m in a horrible, stressful situation with my 19yr old daughter. Basically, she feels that she had a very unhappy childhood and now doesn’t want to have a relationship with us (apart from us continuing to support her at university and keep her during holidays from university 🙄) She does not keep in touch whilst away and when home, spends the entire time in her room. I’m just going to give a brief overview so as not to drip feed.

She is the eldest of 3 with a 5yr gap and essentially says she feels like we ruined her life by having the younger two. Apparently this meant no time for her and less holidays. She said she had to listen to us saying we couldn’t do stuff because of money but yet we chose to have the younger kids. She said it was toxic due to arguments and stress. There was an awful 2yrs after the youngest was born where I had hideous PND but still had to try and cope as we have zero extended family and DH was working away through the week. There’s 18mths between the younger 2 so DD would have been 7-9yrs during this time.
When she was Y5 we put her in for grammar entrance (she’s exceptionally able academically) She passed and went to an all girls grammar. She hated it and we let her move to the comprehensive for Y8. She hated that too but still came out with 4 top A’levels.
There has been lots of teen drama and she was under CAMHS for a year. This was counselling and I was called in for the last 10mins of each session to be told how awful I always made her feel. How she was belittled and unloved and how the younger two were treated more favourably and how I gaslit her. She complains that the younger two have more relaxed rules on bedtime and internet use (probably marginally true but not by a significant amount) She’s also very angry that family holidays can now be more teen focused whereas when she was their age, we had to accommodate younger kids. To me this is all just what happens when you’re the eldest. Every year, I’ve made sure her and I had a weekend away just us. I’ve also taken her shopping for clothes and when she was 14, we completely redid her bedroom allowing her to choose and putting in a make up desk etc. If anything, she’s probably been over indulged a little.

It breaks my heart that she refuses all contact when away and lives by this narrative of having had a toxic childhood. I work in child safeguarding and thus deal with kids daily who really have experienced toxic situations and it frustrates me and upsets me so much to hear DD say such things. Half of me wants to support her and acknowledge, as I have tried to, that there was a very difficult period when her siblings were young and the other half wants to tell her to stop wallowing in self indulgent MC bullshit. Obviously the latter isn’t ideal and I do push that away. As things stand, she’ll finish next year and we’ll never hear from her again and I’m desperate to sort this out beforehand. Well done if you’ve got this far. Any advice is very welcome.

It’s curious that so many of us are “misreading” the OP.

Not really, it happens constantly on MN, that people will project their own experience onto someone else. And as it happens I had a very difficult time with my own mother.

I think the internet encourages too much navel gazing and too much picking over every minutae of our history.
Op it sounds like you've given your daughter a good enough childhood, which is all we can aspire to.

I hope your daughter finds some perspective soon. From what you've said it sounds like she'll be pretty lonely if she does cut you off.

OP I think you are minimising a traumatic time for your DD, at a crucial stage in her childhood.

I think really trying to listen and engage with what she says, while putting in place appropriate boundaries, would help a lot.

There may have been little that you could have done to change the situation - many DC will go through adverse events in their childhood. It's not great but it's sometimes unavoidable.

But it seems like you are not really grasping the extent to which this may have affected her and your eyeroll at her wanting to be supported in university seems to add to this.

There needs to be some bottom lines around what behaviour and treatment is appropriate, towards you and also her siblings. She is entitled to feel anything she wants, but not to be offensive. I think you can say this to her, while being open to real discussions where you listen properly and acknowledge her feelings - not the situation, or what you did or didn't do - but how she felt then, and feels now.

I prefer succinct, and bloody true as evidenced by this thread.

showy self harm

I don't know strong enough words to express my horror that people like you exist, who put "showy" and "self-harm" in the same sentence.

If someone is self-harming, they are mentally ill. If they are drawing attention to it, that is also a symptom of their illness.

And you work with autistic teens. 😨 Please, leave your job because you are not suited to it. You should have left when you first showed signs of Staff Personality Disorder, but you can still leave now and stop yourself from doing further harm.

I'm not reporting your post because I want the evidence of how so-called "professionals" think of autistic youth to stay up for all to see.

Nonsense. It means nothing.

Anyone will be 'in the wrong' if they have done something wrong. The martyrish idea that 'oh everyone blames the poor mum' is silly. Parents do do things wrong and may need to address this.

And if they didn't, they can make that clear too.

What, all of the critical posters read her wrongly? That's some coincidence.

Apologies - if you have already addressed this but I couldn't see it in your posts.
What does your Dh think about this ?

Do you know how she’s doing at university? I wonder if she’s struggling and latching onto anything to explain why she’s struggling with the work or socially.
Does she work? Does she volunteer? Meeting people outside your bubble often puts things into perspective.

Where is her dad? What is her relationship like with him and other extended family?

This is the relationships board although from some of the posts it feels more like AIBU.

Maybe when she is older she might just realise that you did the best you could given what you knew at the time. But for now have you reminded her of the times you took her out, of the shows, the bedroom redecoration etc because she is only concentrating on the negatives as she feels them. Acknowledge how she feels given your illness etc but counter it too.

I am in a sibling group of 3 and similar age gaps. I do feel with 3 that there can be a tendency for 2 of them to leave out the other child, especially one who is 5 years older. I am not the eldest and my sister feels like every fair ground ride she went on was with a stranger as my Mum and Dad took myself and my younger sibling on with them in a seat for 2, reasoning that because my sister was older she would be the better one to not need her Mum or Dad when she very much did need them. My younger sister was treated very differently and we called my Mum out on it when we were older. She was allowed to just be the baby and not do any chores unlike us. As adults we understand she did the best she could, she loved us, cared for us, it was massively lacking at times but we have forgiven her and moved on. She was an incredible Grandma to our children.

As someone with a child at uni, lots of them get sucked into this self indulgent shit, protesting and whining, threatening not to pay their rent because they disagree with something the university is doing or not doing. They are surrounded by competition with woe is me and so wallow which could be part of what your DD is doing.

But her words don't match her actions, she wants nothing to do with you, but comes home in the holidays, wants nothing to do with you but sticks her hand out for money from you. I think she is looking for reassurance that you are there for her now and won't cut her off. However, she also want you to flagellate yourself which I wouldn't do.

Do children ever apologise for the way they were.
It's 2 way. Modern day thing estrangement. Some people even completely rewrite their history to suit.
No respect for parents and social media has something to do with it plus possible mental health issues.

If you do it your probably just teaching your kids to do the same to you?

@User373433, contagion MH issues was mentioned by CAMHS. She once made cuts on her hand and showed the therapist. The therapist did not consider she was at risk of self harming as the small cuts were visible and DD was keen to show. She said we should keep alert but that YP who self harm do not present this way. This was my professional experience too but even years later I’m always checking sideways up her sleeves and at her thighs when she wears shorts. I’ve never seen evidence of any self harm but I’m alert to the possibility with all my kids. When she was discharged they told me they felt the sessions were actually becoming detrimental to her.

As I said earlier, I do think there’s a strong possibility that she has ASD or at least many traits. I think because she’s a very confident, very articulate, very academically able young woman, it masks her difficulties. Perhaps, as suggested a few times, I’ll ask her if she’d like to look at this again now she’s an adult.

My younger sibling was born when I was 11 and it was honestly hell at home after that. My mum couldn't cope and had a breakdown although was never diagnosed. Me and my older sister were left with the baby a lot of the time. I was never looked after after that or even spoken to unless it was about me babysitting. My mum would deny all this. My sister had grown up to be lovely and is very close to my mum. She doesn't know any of this happened and thinks me and my older sister are exaggerating some of the horrendous stories. My mum thinks it's funny that at that time we couldn't afford school coats of anything as she didn't go back to work so we were just left freezing on the bus stop etc. so much more I could say but my sister being born did change things at home and ruin my childhood. It wasn't my sisters fault. My mum has never apologised or acknowledged it. Maybe she couldn't help it but if I behaved like that I would at least apologise and try and make it up to the children.
So my mum thinks nothing happened and we had a great childhood and I was an"difficult" teenager. I wasn't. I was neglected once my sister was born.
So I'm not sure if anything similar happened to your daughter? Was she left helping with the siblings all the time? Were family events about her or always the younger two? Why would they be prioritised because teenagers are more sensitive than for example a 6 year old.
Maybe I've got it wrong and she is just spoilt but in my opinion having a younger sibling was definitely not in my best interest although I love her now.

Don't be silly. Children do not need to apologise for how they were. They were children. We are the parents, the grown ups.

I have three teens / almost teens. They are basically good kids but dear God they are driving me mad at the moment with their selfishness. Lots of arguments about it.

They don't need to apologise in the future for how they were. Hopefully, they'll mature and become less selfish - and hopefully I'll give enough guidance to allow that to happen. That's being a parent.

I feel sorry for you. You’ve done the best you can and tried to make her home environment as good as you could. Loads of young people don’t get weekends away and checking in on their emotional status yet don’t complain about awful childhoods. My mum was constantly in hospital during my childhood and it would’ve been immensely cruel to say to her I missed out. I definitely think the modern navel gazing among young women about how awful things are and what a shit hand has been dealt to them is to blame. Their feelings are validated online and leads to a spiral of blame and how everyone else is awful. The fact she can’t keep long term friendships without falling out and blaming others suggests this. I can’t suggest advice other than to treat her a bit more matter of factly rather than trying to please her. Give her a minimum of financial support and tell her you love her and you did your best. Ask her how she would’ve done things differently and listen to see if she has valid points. It’s heartbreaking as you love her-I regularly hear my kids tell me their friends hate their parents and that they can’t understand it as their life isn’t that bad. Unfortunately, not bad or good enough doesn’t seem to cut it these days.

I think this is so true too. I actually find my teens indulgence in mental health and hints she's had trauma quite triggering, because I actually did have a very traumatic childhood. As a teenager I was bitter about it, and blamed my mum but never made any accusations to her. Tbh, the blame to my mum was fair, but it took until my mid to late 20's to realise like the pp says, that she was only human too. Her flaws caused me great trauma but we're not deliberately vindictive. She would have done better if she could. So when my DD is feeling sorry for herself, and has had no trauma, yes it is hard to feel concerned for her and supportive. But I have said casually, look, I'm sorry if I haven't been a good enough parent for you. I'm only human, I can only do my best with the knowledge I have at the time. My mum sometimes used to quote this poem, which I actually found quite comforting and still do.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Does that matter, particularly? Regardless of the nature of her injury, she was demonstrating some unhappiness. That's what's important.

Hi OP. I’ve read all your posts, but not the responses. I guess there will be plenty of posters thinking you must have done something to make your DD feel like this. I’m going to suggest that may not be the case. I think it’s possible she may be very unhappy and is desperately looking for a reason for feeling that way and trying to analyse her childhood to provide those reasons.
Why is she unhappy? Mild depression? Autism/anxiety? Hormones? Just the normal feeling a bit lost that older teens need to go through.
You talk about all the lovely things you’ve done together but now she’s at Uni I wonder if she just needs some space to go off and do her own thing and make her own mistakes. I’m not sure how old you are but my uni days predate mobile phones and we didn’t keep in regular touch with our parents. It gave us the freedom to explore who we were (ie get drunk and have sex) with out feeling judged. Perhaps she needs this and is just saying it very badly.

Hmm it's bloody hard being a parent. All you can do is keep on loving and supporting them all and hoping that one day she comes to realise that you did your best.
The only thing I'd say is that your eye roll, six lines into your post, makes me suspect that you are (understandably) fed up with paying her upkeep. Be careful not to place too much emphasis on the "we paid for you to go to uni" line, as this is expected of us by the govt. It isn't really a special favour, and she wouldn't get help with uni costs from the state until she is ?25 as it's expected that parents will contribute.

I am the flip side to this experience. I'm the oldest and experienced exactly what your daughter went through.

I once overdosed and nobody noticed as my mother was too busy with the younger children. It was also so called teen drama.

I no longer have a relationship with my family, I am cordial and send the odd Christmas text etc and my mother and siblings reach out to me maybe 4 or 5 times a year. I don't see them if I can avoid it, though occasionally do at family things eg remaining grandparent birthday dinner at their request that all family attend.

I honestly can say that it eroded all love and compassion I had for any of them and that the older I have got the more I understand just how bad their treatment of me was. I realise now how vulnerable and helpless I was at that age and how I did try to please, be good he quite etc. When in reality I shouldn't have bothered at all. I am glad we no longer speak as it's a huge relief and I honestly feel they can add nothing to my life at this point. It's not that I don't forgive, I just don't see any usefulness for somebody who failed me when I needed them, and now I no longer do need them I do not owe them anything.

How you proceed will likely dictate the outcome of your relationship with your daughter as it was around uni age that I gained enough independence to turn my back on them.

Give her a minimum of financial support

Why a minimum? Should OP punish her DD? 🤔

I was wondering how pp came to this conclusion too

^This.

She once made cuts on her hand and showed the therapist.

That in itself is a symptom. She needs some kind of help, doesn't know how to ask for it.

CAMHS are shit at picking up autism in girls and alexithymia makes naming feelings hard, never mind unpacking them and identifying the real root cause of them.

Not saying that your DD is autistic because I'm not a diagnostician and, even if I was, I'd have to meet her several times, but saying that it's a possibility.