Is this the script? Handhold please

[Whatachliche]

I can't believe I'm typing this - after 25 years my HB wants to move out.

When he left for a recent work trip, we were both set to work on our relationship with a therapist. after his return, he has a new gym routine, bought new underwear and has decided he is not feeling emotionally connected to me anymore and he is too 'confused' to know what he wants.

This is the f* script right?

there have been struggles like loss and illness and an unhealthy communication style from his side but we just started couples therapy to work on our relationship and turn things around. now this.

Do I entertain his quest for space or do I believe the signs of the script and just start divorce? I don't want to look through his phone, I think I can't deal with the truth. I rather walk away without knowing if that makes sense, or is that just the fear of no point of return?

The only way you can get him to move out is if he thinks it's for his benefit, and that it was his idea.

Can you pander to his ego in any way to try to push these buttons. "Oh STBXH...this divorce is so upsetting to me, I've tried to put a brave face on...I love you so much but I just want you to be happy...I'm worried my low mood will be bringing you down every time you see me....I know our future will no longer be together but I hope you can find your happiness........."

Basically give him all the cues to maybe then be able to move out on 'his terms'

My ex husband tried to get me to move out of our shared house during the divorce - he was told by his solicitor that he couldn't. He wanted to give me less than 10% of the equity, I refused and we were at stalemate for about 6 months, until I pointed out that I was getting legal aid (this was 30 years ago and I was unemployed) so the divorce was costing me nothing, whereas the longer it went on the higher his legal fees would be. I also pointed out that the way house prices were increasing, he would recover his 'lost' equity in less than 3 years. He finally saw the sense of what I was saying and I ended up with 100% of the equity (his solicitor was really pissed off).

I've read your thread from the beginning and in your case I would be looking to move out. I don't think staying is doing your mental health any favours, and even more importantly, your stbxh sounds like he could be dangerous.

@Whatachliche

There's no way to make him simply move out voluntarily. But that doesn't mean you should move (if that's what you're starting to feel).

But FWIW, the choices are:

Make him a buy out offer he can't refuse 

Flat gets sold and proceeds split

His behaviour escalates to the legal criteria of abuse & he is 'ordered' out, but I   
think he's too canny for that

The alternative is to accept an offer from him to buy you out and you move out or, ahem, pour a new patio (jk).

The thing is he knows all this and it may be quite possible that he's trying to make things miserable for you until you are unhappy enough to leave. If this is the case, you need to give serious thought (and get legal advice) about whether or not it's the 'least best' option. Personally, if I got to that point, I'd sell the flat. I know that 'if I can't have it, no one can' is not really a mature decision, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

This is awful op

I think you could get him out by getting a non molestation order. Although he’s not been physical with you, I’m sure you could list many occasions he’s been aggressive with you?

I've done all I can do in terms of forms needed for the divorce, waiting for his forms but he is keen to get the money from the flat, so he will not delay anymore like he did before.

If he gets full of rage again I'll call the police, but I think he really knows he has overdone it last time and he is on his best behaviour at the moment. I am aware it is a cycle, his behaviour might come back. but so far he has not given me another reason to call the police.

I'm now left with struggling seeing him every day. when he is nice it's a painful reminder of what I have lost. When he is awful it's a painful reminder that I cant make him leave the flat against his will. Emotionally I'm still quite numb.

Thinking of you Whatachliche, hope things het better soon. Keep us updated so that we know you’re safe first and foremost. 🍀

@Whatachliche

This is the point, when you've taken the actions you can take and all you can do is wait, that it becomes the hard slog through the 'inaction'. At this point the best thing to do is keep as busy as you can with things that will make you feel you've accomplished something AND tire you out.

Time to clean out those closets and cupboards you've been giving the side-eye to for years, sort through your and DC clothing and get rid or pass down/give away what doesn't fit. This has the benefit of keeping you busy, getting rid of excess stuff, and 'downsizing' on the off chance you may need to in the future. Once that's done there's always the baseboards, tile grout, deep crevices & crannies, mattresses to flip and vacuum, and whatever else you can find.

I'm now left with struggling seeing him every day. when he is nice it's a painful reminder of what I have lost.

Just remember though that this 'nice' isnt him. This is him when everything is going his way and he is getting away with being the lying scumbag he is - because even when he is 'being nice' he is still dishonest.

Youve seen the real thing him when youve challenged him or disagreed on anything. Thats no way to live.

When you saw his full rage last time - what exactly did he do and say? Was it enough to report him to the police?

you are right. I try to keep focused on this truth but coming out if the fog is confusing and disorienting.
Despite all the evidence of his lies and affairs, he has me so easily back under his spell. I have to actively work against it if that makes sense? It's exhausting. I can see myself how easily my heart seems to settle for the smallest gestures. Every time I notice this I go back into the folder of evidence, or my notes reminding me of how he is in the awful part of the cycle. I also have my sister I can call when I feel getting hoovered back in again, she is quick to set me straight. You would never think the above would be me if you met me in real life. I come across as a strong and decisive person. I'm a different person in this relationship.

I know this goes against this thread but I have absolutely no idea why you’re not now just telling him what you know and making life hard for him.

Your silence is keeping you in limbo and you sound as though you’re suffering because of it!

And there’s a husband who is still being abused by his wife (through infidelity) while everyone plays their set of cards.

I know this is an unpopular view but there you go.

I just think this is so toxic and unhealthy for you.

how would I make life hard for him though?

To have a hard life he would need the ability to feel guilty. to have empathy for my wellbeing, he would need to care about my emotions - but he doesn't.

sleeping arrangements, food and laundry are separated.

he understands his legal position: I can not make him leave the flat. so he doesn't.

if I'd get angry 'losing my shit at him' every day, he wouldn't care. He would go to the spare room, close the door, call one of his OW.

I can't see how I would win anything and how I would make his life hard?

look I’m not here to argue with you but I genuinely think you’re keeping yourself trapped and I really don’t get it. That’s for you to figure out.

you're watching him lie and gaslight you every day knowing he’s doing it.

you don’t have to argue and shout but just to say you know and you’re not keeping quiet with friends and family is enough to make him uneasy. You’re right he doesn’t care about you but he does care about his self image, he’s a narcissist. He has carefully curated an image and you’re allowing him to keep hold of it. And I’m not sure what for?

I couldn’t put up with this. But as I say I know that’s unpopular with you and with this thread in general. You’ve lived like this for nearly three months now and I can’t see that you’ve got anything from it other than more trauma!

I don't experience your different point of view as arguing against me or the thread. It is a valid question. it is an important question. WHY do I not confront him?

I have mentioned practical reasons. Besides practicalities, it feels like a strategic one-upmanship: you got a secret, well I know about it and now my secret is even bigger. Petty or clever? I don't know. bit of both?

The most daunting, sad and uncomfortable reason for not outing him, for not laying out all the proof I have, is his manipulation skill, and my 20-year rehearsed ability to fold under his DARVO:
He will deny - and I know I will be desperate to believe him, even with the proof in my hands.
he then will attack and throw all my faults and mistakes at me - had a little preview of this in one of our discussions and it was brutal. Do I really need more of this?
he will deflect responsibility, and this is the part that I am too familiar with: His mistakes have too often been re-dressed as my doing. I really don't want to hear his complicated construct of why his affair is my fault.

If OP tells him, his mask comes off.
Then she’s living with an exposed angry narcissist full of rage and shame. A horrible combination that would be far worse than how he’s behaving now.

I think OP is doing the right thing.

So he says it’s all your fault. You then take the wind out of his sails by agreeing with him, and saying that as you’re clearly such a bad person to be with, he really shouldn’t be sharing space with you.......

Sadly that’s not how conversations with these people go. They spit out all sorts of vile things. He’s not going to simply say ‘it’s your fault’.

OP is correct that he will say deeply unpleasant things that hurt, confuse and throw her off course.

He won’t sit there politely if she starts speaking in the way you suggest. He will be shouting vile personal things and not listening. Even if she did say that, the sneering rage it would be met with would be vile. I suspect the mask will slip more and more as time goes by though. And it will be tough.

In the meantime, OP knows him and is using her instincts to manage him.

You can never reason or get ‘one up’ in a conversation with these people. They are prepared to say anything to ‘win’ the battle.

@Catoo exactly this. You describe it so accurately!

You’re doing well OP.
Trying to outwit them in conversations never works does it?! As you will now know, careful grey rock is the only way to get through any kind of conversation. I like ‘waffly grey rock’ as I think they get less angry. While just saying ‘ok’ to everything is satisfying I like to add in extra words ‘ok that’s a good idea’ still grey rock and they can’t be angry that you’re being short etc. I’m sure you’re getting expert by now!

I hope you’ve managed to push on with the admin and are getting good support from friends and family. 💐

https://www.wikihow.com/Confuse-a-Narcissist

You are doing the right thing. While biding your time maybe tiring and frustrating, it is 100x preferable to being gaslighted, yelled at and blamed.
I have tried to land verbal blows on my narc. and it always leaves me feeling worse off, because they have no shame, boundaries or compassion when it comes to arguing.
The only way to maintain your mental health is to close down any communication "ok" or ignore the jibes, go on as normal as though you haven't even heard it. Comfort yourself that it's not forever, it's merely a moment in the rest of your life. He will always be a narcissist and the OW will have their prize and that is their problem.
Stay strong, build your life, practice living without him, it will be lovely and worth the wait.

@Whatachliche

You would never think the above would be me if you met me in real life. I come across as a strong and decisive person. I'm a different person in this relationship.

The face we show to people outside ourselves, even to family, is often very different to who we really are in our minds and, particularly, in our hearts. It can be a constant struggle to live up to who people think we are, who we wish we really are, and who we are under the skin.

You can "fake it till you make it" to get on, to advance yourself professionally, to get along, to be thought well of, but it's exhausting.

It takes time, energy and courage to break the pattern, OP. I'm glad you've taken steps towards be you and do what's best for you. I wish you the very best for a better, more positive future 🌹

you don’t have to argue and shout but just to say you know and you’re not keeping quiet with friends and family is enough to make him uneasy. You’re right he doesn’t care about you but he does care about his self image, he’s a narcissist. He has carefully curated an image and you’re allowing him to keep hold of it. And I’m not sure what for?

@Usernamechange1234 this sounds a lot like trying to get revenge/score points against him. And for what? If OP succeeded, she maybe feels a bit of satisfaction for half an hour. But it's not going to help her move forward. And far FAR more likely is she won't succeed making him feel uneasy, making him worry for his image with others. And she will instead create an even more horrendous domestic setup for herself as he has no reason at all to maintain any discretion with his affairs and punishes her for daring to attempt to score points against him.

Given the pros/cons, I'm not sure why anyone would suggest the very short term, minor satisfaction of revealing her knowledge weighs more than the likely consequences, given the situation.

What do you think will happen that makes OP's life better, if she reveals it?

He wants to sell, & you want to buy the flat.(assuming you can fund it) so isnt it now just a case of getting the sale pushed through ?

Once this is done I would pop his bubble of lies with all the OW, his family, friends & work colleagues with huge pleasure