Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it

434 replies

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 17:52

Hi all. Ive come to a realisation lately that has almost brought me close to tears because I have to accept that Im probably going to be single for the rest of my life. Grab a cuppa because this is probably going to be long.

For context, I am a single 33 year old female with my own business, own house, no kids, independent, no baggage, relatively attractive (without blowing my own trumpet) and look young enough than my actual age, have a masters degree, love travelling, open minded, funny (I like to think so), clever, lots of friends, love socialising (out most weekends), and I have some depth to me and actually give a shit about things in life that a lot of people disregard, like animal welfare, homelessness etc. In a nutshell, I’m decent.

Here is the boat I find myself in…
I’ve had 3 proper relationships in my life, all no longer than 12 months, 2 of them verbally abusive and cheaters. Ive got a thick skin now and try not to take any shit and I’m aware of potential red flags that may pop up. Ive been on my own for over 5 years now, with little flings here and there. I’ve tried online dating, but the thing is, I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me but open minded to many other things), decent job, decent human being. I don’t care if theyre divorced or already have kids, I’m just fundamentally looking for the bare minimum – to fancy them, initially. I’ve had sexless relationships in the past and its not fun for either party – fancying someone is a must.

Whenever I fancy men in real life, I imagine if they were on a dating site and I ask myself if I’d have swiped for them based just on their pictures and the answer is no, I probably wouldn’t, unless of course they are the ‘conventionally good looking’ type that have had the balls to come over to me on a night out (rarely happens these days, and if it does, they turn out to be a narcissist – hence the macho confidence and charisma). So I know dating sites aren’t working for me, as Im much more likely to fancy someone when I can see the ‘fuller picture’ ie their voice, humour, intelligence, wittiness, their mannerisms etc etc. My theory is that most of the men that are conventionally ‘good looking’ and get the most swipes, are probably lacking in all the areas Ive listed above that are attractive traits, and are more than likely players as they have the pick of the bunch (we are ALL swiping for the good looking ones – and they fucking know it!).
You might ask why I haven’t settled down with the men ive met organically then above, the ‘normal’ ones that have traits I like. Here is where my problem really is – they have clocked on that they are a fucking rarity.

Have you been on a night out recently and looked around? There are about 15 attractive women to every ‘good looking’ man. I believe this is because women naturally take more pride in their appearance than men do, and now that we earn our own money, we splash it on treatments and tweakments. It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023.
Equally, what are men having done? Well, theres the ones who give a shit about their appearance so they might go to the gym 4 times a week (no im not talking about sted heads - yuck), they may splash out in designer gear head to toe (cringe), or the ones with a little bit of class may shop at Reiss instead (better), but you get my jist. They might visit the barber once a week too for a fresh trim. And the rest of them? Nada. No gym, possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about), maybe they haven’t gone shopping for years. But what do both of these types of men both have in common? They both think they are entitled to stunning women.

As ive explained, the ratio of attractive women to attractive men is off the scale. If you haven’t noticed it before, you will now, especially 40 year olds and under. 50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t. You were either an alpha male at 6 ft 2, or you weren’t, and that was ok. You would simply marry up (literally) with someone who was in the same league as you. Now, women are having to lower their bar and accept less than what they deserve, simply because theres so much competition and not enough men to go around. Ask yourself, how many kind, gorgeous, successful, funny, clever, good yet single women do you know? I can bet it’s a lot.

Again, looking back at relationships 50 years ago and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married, and kind of understood the unwritten rule that they needed to ‘keep their man happy’. On the other hand, men kept us happy too. We didn’t need to work and split the finances, we had the luxury of staying at home, cooking, cleaning and raising the kids as regardless of what anyone says, women are more nurturing, emotional, and quite frankly - do a better job of bringing up the children. This worked out fine for men - they went to work, provided for their family (which triggered their hero instinct), and got their dick sucked in return. Masculine and feminine energy intertwined perfectly, sorry feminists, but its true. And the women were happy, until they weren’t.

We then kicked off that we wanted equal rights to men, equal pay, equal jobs, the list goes on, and we got it. We are now a bunch of independent, self sufficient, home owning, driving, single mothers. We’re basically masculine. The men haven’t changed their role though, they aren’t now staying at home, cooking, cleaning and bringing up the kids, they haven’t sacrificed anything but yet they are still reaping the awards. The award – sex.

We somehow have manipulated ourselves into believing that woman need sex like men do (we don’t), and we can sleep around, use men, get our kit off and call it ‘empowering’. It was only empowering when we got the respect we deserved 50 years ago and the mortgage paid. Now, we don’t get called the next day and get pied off for a woman 10 years younger. Men don’t want commitment, period. We nag them, we remind them of their mothers, they have more fun with their friends and we’re a headache to them. The only benefit they have from having a woman in their lives is sex. Period. And we have continued to spoil them with it, with minimal effort from them. We’re lucky if they buy us a plate of food before we do the honour. But we naturally want more, we are wired differently to men, and this is why they USED to meet us in the middle.

But here’s the thing, when we demand more (commitment), the men back off - have you noticed? We get ghosted when we want something in return. Do not let other women fool you into thinking both sexes are getting a good deal by having intercourse, we aren’t. Men inherently need sex, they think about sex thousands of times per day, they even pay for it, and women enjoy it…sometimes, but we don’t inherently need it.
So why on earth are we still having sex freely with men who haven’t earned it, sometimes even with strangers, and blaming being ghosted on countless other reasons? Hes not ready for commitment, hes been hurt before, hes too busy with work, hes avoidantly attached…he’s not. He just doesn’t want to buy the cow when the milk is free.

I personally have took a stance and have stopped having sex with men that haven’t put the bare minimum amount of effort in, to be frank. By bare minimum, I mean he returns my texts, picks me up, takes me out for a few dinners and is nice to me. I’m not asking for a lot. Ive read ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ and ‘The Rules’ – but these books only work with 2 willing participants. It still doesn’t develop into the fairytale romance I had once envisioned on the first date with him, he either doesn’t feel a connection or he’s backed away at the thought of committing.

Some of you will say “not all men are like that”. This is true. Here is my other theory – the ‘other’ men who may be short, insecure, abusive, jobless, homeless, ugly or stupid may be more than willing to settle down with me – you can bet their bottom dollar they are – but I would like someone who brings something to the table, like I do. I won’t fancy a man who is wet behind the ears, who is scared of a hard days work and would be happy to sit at home raising our kids – it’s not masculine and I don’t want it. The ‘other’ men who are none of the things I’ve listed above and are genuinely fantastic men with a lot to offer, raised right and want to commit to a good woman – guess what? THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN. They were taken in their twenties, and they stayed with that woman, because they are kind, loving, loyal men.

The dating pool for 30, 40, 50 something women now is DIER and we are left with the commitment phobes, abusers, narcissists or tons of baggage that we don’t want. The feminist movement along with plastic surgery and ‘empowering’ women has damaged us. We now all offer the same thing to men and they are spoiled for choice. I was chatting with a male friend of mine not long ago who had been seeing a woman who ticked a lot of boxes but she wanted exclusivity before she agreed to have sex. He didn’t want to be exclusive or commit in any way to any woman, so he let her go. I asked him if he was confident if he would find a good woman like her again in the future, he said yes, and I believe him. We are all competing with each other to be the thinnest, prettiest, most enhanced, smartest, richest to bag the best man, and he’s sitting back and laughing at us all climb over each other in desperation. He’s chilled as a cucumber.

My biological clock is ticking, his isn’t. The men aren’t worried, we are. The men aren’t on mumsnet starting threads about women who won’t have sex with them, because we do. But trust me, if we took this big asset away, they would. Have you noticed how many eligible bachelors you know who just decide when theyre about 45-50 that they are ‘finally ready to settle down’? And they find someone pretty much right away, usually 15 years younger, a box ticker, no kids, no baggage and very fucking fertile. He becomes a dad and gets married and everyone goes “ah at last! He finally found -the One!”. No – she isn’t the one who changed him, she was the one who was there when he realised his looks were fading and he better take what he can while he can. Meanwhile, the women he messed around with back in the day are well into their fifties, still single, possibly childless and debating whether to date someone 20 years older who may cherish them the way no man their age ever did. Do I want to date someone 20 years older than me to feel special? No thanks.

I believe if we all took a stance and stopped giving men the one thing they NEED (sex), until they give us what we NEED (love and commitment), things will change. Stop sexting and sending nudes – they used to pay Babestation for that, now we’re doing it for free! Stop allowing them to waltz in and out of your life every other weekend when he feels like it. Stop popping kids out to undeserving men who wont even put a ring on your finger. A child is the greatest gift a woman can give to a man, its priceless and its basically fucking magical. Yet, people are allowing their wombs to be invaded by men who couldn’t give 2 shits about them when it comes down to it. We then raise fatherless children who grow up with daddy issues and the cycle repeats again. We need to raise the bar and say NO collectively, or else it won’t work. The bimbo on Saturday night who goes home with him after one drink (bare minimum) will undo all our hard work.
If the feminist movement hadn’t have happened, I don’t believe relationships would be as dire as they are right now. Its great that we earn the same as men and have our independence, but look at the price we have paid. They haven’t paid any price, nothing has changed for them, infact it only got EASIER. They still get sex and kids, but no bills or commitment – bingo! We have normalised this behaviour and it’s time to put an end to it.

I can turn down a man for sex tomorrow, but he’s not bothered because he always knows this… theres another desperate girl hoping that if she fucks like a pornstar Friday night she will bag him. She won’t. And he will move on to the next. Women look for love, men only fall in love by accident – by spending quality time with a woman. But they can’t fall in love if we give it up too easy when his foot is already out the door.

As you can tell I've given this a lot of thought and I'm disappointed with where I find myself at my age, and where I think the world is heading. Does anyone else feel the same way?

OP posts:
bendypines · 08/01/2024 20:52

ItsBeenRaining · 08/01/2024 20:43

I had nothing but alpha's when young, they scared off all the decent ones.

Alphas will fight for women and they do.

The alphas can fight for women all they like but we are not chattels to be fought over. Sometimes they forget that.

BigMandsTattooPortfolio · 08/01/2024 20:53

KnitFastDieWarm · 08/01/2024 20:50

If this OP was written by a woman then I‘m the Pope 😁

no woman refers to herself as ‘a 33 year old female’ and thinks boob jobs are a normal part of modern womanhood ffs.

back in your box, little incel.

Yes, obvious incel is obvious - plus it contains every incel dating obsession in the incel catalogue of crazy.

kkloo · 08/01/2024 20:53

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 20:11

When I was dating, my height ranges were "comfortable to hug, snog etc" standing up.... "Not comfortable to hug, snog etc standing up; sofa or bed needed".

That's about as accurate as it got.

It's one of my only talents 😂

PaperEater · 08/01/2024 20:54
Ryan Gosling Barbie GIF by Warner Bros. Pictures

OK m8

Angelsrose · 08/01/2024 20:54

Op I sympathise that it is TOUGH out there and for every decent man there are thousands of absolute ratbags. I think perhaps your analysis of the past is a little simplistic and not fully reflective of the true situation. Whilst the feminist movement has meant many women are working twice as hard, not only in the home but in the workplace, the past was not some kind of utopia. People often romanticise the past but abuse of women was commonplace and whilst she may have been superficially provided for, she had no agency whatsoever and had to endure abusive situations with no chance of escape. You only have to read a couple of mumsnet threads to see how men who are "breadwinners" treat their wives as maids and how these wives are miserable because of it. Sadly you are likely to need to "lower" your standards if you want to find lasting love. People are not perfect because they're good looking or awful because they're average looking. Once you accept that you are not perfect, it's much easier to accept flaws in others. No-one is perfect and looks fade. Of course you should pick someone you fancy but good character traits are far more important than looks.

Ihopeithinkiknow · 08/01/2024 21:01

KnitFastDieWarm · 08/01/2024 20:50

If this OP was written by a woman then I‘m the Pope 😁

no woman refers to herself as ‘a 33 year old female’ and thinks boob jobs are a normal part of modern womanhood ffs.

back in your box, little incel.

It’s only because I know someone in real life (my sister) who is a lot like the OP (shallow) that I can totally believe a woman wrote this lol all I hear is “men don’t want an intelligent woman like me because they prefer the slutty sex giving ones” my sister and the OP are incredibly insecure I think and have unrealistic expectations

Honeychickpea · 08/01/2024 21:01

puncheur · 08/01/2024 18:07

"It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023."

It really, really isn't.

I agree, it's pretty unusual where I live. Where do you live, OP, where that is considered the norm?

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 21:04

I feel that most of you are just solely concentrating on the anti-feminist points. Let me clarify - I’m glad I don’t rely on a man to provide for me. The point I was making is that if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex. They had to show commitment to have sex, and deny it all you like, but most women want commitment and atleast exclusivity. I’m saying that men don’t need to provide that now, as sex is on tap and easily accessible.

if you think an incel wrote this then I’d suggest getting your head felt - it goes against everything incels stand for.

by the way - aware of my typo of ‘dire’ but you will see I spelt it correctly further down my novel later on…but thank you for pointing it out :-)

im standing up for women and saying we deserve more. Im sick of reading and hearing about women being treated like an option when we make men a priority. Is there a Dadsnet where men are complaining about being ghosted after sex? I don’t think so. It’s not in our nature really to have sex with someone we’re not really into, to then just ghost them. But men like to spread their seed - you know it, we all know it.

finally can people stop solely concentrating on my comment about 6 ft aswel please. It’s my preference, but I have dated people shorter. I will take that onboard if I ever do online dating again and maybe lower it as there is a possibility that taller men are kind of exploiting that, knowing they’re more sought after. I wouldn’t absolutely object to dating someone who ticked lots of boxes just because he’s 5 ft 10 - wise up!

OP posts:
InstrumentsofTorture · 08/01/2024 21:06

Op I married a man who was 6' 6" and I don't even have fake boobs (would quite like some though). I'd be happy to give you some tips if you'd like?

Ps He's dead now but I don't think it was my fault.

GoldDuster · 08/01/2024 21:06

Men and women don't move as one homogenous lump, you've got humans all wrong, have you ever been outside of the house and met some real ones OP?

ILostMy20s · 08/01/2024 21:07

What the bloody hell is this diatribe? Alright Annabelle Tate.

Man here. I don't "think about sex thousands of times every day." I think about what I need to do for work and what I'm having for tea tonight. 😂

DreadPirateRobots · 08/01/2024 21:07

if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex

Boy, I can tell you've really studied your social history.

DrWu · 08/01/2024 21:08

Clearly you are not as attractive and amazing as you think you are, if the same thing keeps happening to you, maybe you should look at yourself as the problem, not anyone else, not the men who don't want you or the women who you seem to think are taking away the men you are owed.

I happen to LOVE sex, before I got married I was one of those women you hate, I had sex with who I wanted to, when I wanted to, and guess what, they all text me back, a fair few of them even wanted more from me and wanted commitment, at the time, I did not. I even had sex with my husband on our first date! Shock horror!

You are full of shit, you're pissed off because nobody wants you, it's not because of anything other than the fact they you have an ugly personality and cannot see your own faults, you are clearly putting men off just by being you. Get your head out of your arse.

PaperEater · 08/01/2024 21:08

I'm still chuckling at the idea that all women desire the "luxury" of being stuck in the house all day every day, cooking and cleaning, and making time for the carrying out of the daily Gratitude Blow Job.

SweetChilliChickenWrap · 08/01/2024 21:14

50 years ago...Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married

That was 1973. Don't talk shite, OP.

JimnJoyce · 08/01/2024 21:14

What on earth makes you think men 'need' sex?? That's a load of bollocks and a sweeping statement. They just have a lot more spare time to indulge in it than most women.

Sugarfish · 08/01/2024 21:19

You sound like a bitter man to be honest. And if you think women didn’t have one night stands or sleep around in the past you are incredibly naive.
Looking at sex as a prize to give away to a man is such an outdated view, and despite what you seem to believe, many many women enjoy and need sex. The problem seems to be, if you are really a woman, that you keep going for inappropriate men. You also seem proud of being self sufficient but want men to buy you dinners and stuff which is just weird.
I think you just need to date better men, they are out there. I do get your point about the attractive men on dating sites being able to have their pick and you’re probably right. Maybe try and develop a relationship with someone more average looking but with a decent personality? Some might be under 6 though.

wronginalltherightways · 08/01/2024 21:20

Ihopeithinkiknow · 08/01/2024 18:17

Sounds like you are in the same boat as my 30 year old sister lol I’m 42 so missed out on being a teen with social media and thank fuck for that!! Of course the initial attraction is important but looks fade and it just seems like my sisters expectations are off the charts when it comes to men lol I’m glad she has got standards and won’t accept any shit but she was chatting to a guy who wasn’t her usual type and he was clever and funny and seemed like a nice bloke tbh but unfortunately didn’t fit her aesthetic so he got binned off. I love my sister dearly but fucking hell she comes across as incredibly shallow sometimes. I don’t think it’s just a “men” problem I think people have just forgotten what really matters to be happy and whether or not people on social media think they look happy urgh it’s bloody exhausting and I’m glad I dodged all that and am happy with someone who I genuinely love for who they are and not what they look like. Ok I have officially turned into one of those “back in my day” people lol

100%

People want instant gratification for everything, including relationships.

Social media has contributed to the hot mess that so many 'relationships', or lack thereof, are.

aurynne · 08/01/2024 21:22

Your post has so many misassumptions that I wouldn't know where to start.

There is nothing wrong with men, it's about you not finding a partner, so it's a "you" problem.

Men don't "need" sex. A higher proportion of men have higher testosterone and higher sexual desire, but that does not result in "needing" sex. They're not helpless sex machines.

Even if men "needed" sex, that does not mean women are obliged to give it to them. They can wank or use sex toys, or have sex with other men. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Most "super attractive" women's profiles on OLD are bots and catfish. There are also some fake male profiles, but far fewer in proportion.

Most women don't have sex with men they don't find attractive. If you've been having sex with men to make them love you, then again it's a "you" problem.

There are plenty more lonely men than women out there. Of course, online they all brag of all the sex they have with younger women and how older women will end up "sad and alone". They tell you than to get you in bed with them, in case you haven't noticed yet. Very, very few men get away with having sex with younger, attractive women, and most of those men are very wealthy, good looking and look younger. Men lie about how much sex they have. All the time.

It's mostly men who are terrified of ending up alone. Most men can't deal with life without a woman to take care of them. Again, this is their problem to solve, not yours or mine. They could choose to make themselves more attractive and useful to women. If they don't, then let them rant.

Women find partners at any age. I have recently found an amazing man: intelligent, attractive, younger than me, generous and selfless, and I am 47. A friend of mine who is not attractive (she is overweight and does not have a pretty face, but she is witty and funny) has just found a super-hot, man her own age and they're happy AF. Neither of us found them on OLD. There are good men out there, but the bad men want you to think you'll end up alone. Again, so you have sex with them and waste your time in them instead.

Be ruthless. Get rid of useless men straight away, no "give them a chance" shit. Out the door, pronto. Life is too short.

Be interesting. Be the best you can be so you can attract the kind of man you want. Which intelligent, selfless man would go out with a miserable git who is always complaining asbout men? Make yourself into the person you would like to attract. Stop whinging.

There. Now get out into the world and enjoy its possibilities.

SouthLondonMum22 · 08/01/2024 21:29

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 21:04

I feel that most of you are just solely concentrating on the anti-feminist points. Let me clarify - I’m glad I don’t rely on a man to provide for me. The point I was making is that if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex. They had to show commitment to have sex, and deny it all you like, but most women want commitment and atleast exclusivity. I’m saying that men don’t need to provide that now, as sex is on tap and easily accessible.

if you think an incel wrote this then I’d suggest getting your head felt - it goes against everything incels stand for.

by the way - aware of my typo of ‘dire’ but you will see I spelt it correctly further down my novel later on…but thank you for pointing it out :-)

im standing up for women and saying we deserve more. Im sick of reading and hearing about women being treated like an option when we make men a priority. Is there a Dadsnet where men are complaining about being ghosted after sex? I don’t think so. It’s not in our nature really to have sex with someone we’re not really into, to then just ghost them. But men like to spread their seed - you know it, we all know it.

finally can people stop solely concentrating on my comment about 6 ft aswel please. It’s my preference, but I have dated people shorter. I will take that onboard if I ever do online dating again and maybe lower it as there is a possibility that taller men are kind of exploiting that, knowing they’re more sought after. I wouldn’t absolutely object to dating someone who ticked lots of boxes just because he’s 5 ft 10 - wise up!

It isn't standing up for women to blame them for the behaviour of some men. Men need to be held accountable for their actions.

They also don't need sex, no one does.

YRGAM · 08/01/2024 21:30

Mate, next time you're pretending to be a woman online, try not to use the term 'female'. It's an instant giveaway

tralalalalalalalal · 08/01/2024 21:30

Ayse1 · 08/01/2024 18:06

This is mysogyny in reverse

Precisely

SheFliesLikeABirdInTheSky · 08/01/2024 21:36

Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married.

😂

I know/have known at LEAST 2 dozen women over the past few decades - who got married before the 1970s, and were pregnant before they were married. Many of them were pregnant on their wedding day. A few of them had already got a child - who thought nana was their mum! Wink

If you are who you say - a 30-something single woman - then you're living on another planet @Hugsandkisses1 You also sound intense, and like very hard work. If I was a man I would run for the hills, because you would scare the shit out of me Shock

if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex

Yeah.... Not true! 😆

Thinking about it, I agree with other posters, that this thread sounds like it's been written by an angry, bitter man, who is butthurt that the wimmin aren't behaving how da menz want them to! Wink

emerald7 · 08/01/2024 21:48

Wow!!

Well said your in my brain, I've had this conversation many times with a male friend.

He says all the time!!

To many women giving away for free so why do men have to put in the work anymore!

Women don't want to be lead they want to be independent do everything for themselves!! "Happy to be lead by a manager though that provides nothing, doesn't care and can sack you tomorrow"

TTCquestion · 08/01/2024 22:01

possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about)

A bit cruel OP. Not everyone can fork out for a hairline transplant and I like to think most men feel secure enough in their appearance to not feel compelled to get one.

Can you imagine if a man wrote (about women) something like “possibly the standard saggy tits (that they’re not bothered about)”?

I don’t think it’s that much of a mystery you’re single if views from your post somehow become known.